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Industry expansion - Industry problem
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Abel Kugisa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-06-08 22:59:30 UTC
What would be the solution for your problem? There probably isn't a good solution.

If you want to compete in the procurer market you still can. You just have to buy all procurers on the market. Then you are in the position of those lucky speculators which stock piled so many procurers years ago.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#42 - 2014-06-08 23:02:23 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
CCP has stated they will not interfere with these interactions.


Yeah... that is kind of the problem.

They did and as a result of it i cant enter the procurer market because people took advantage of the changes they made and they made enough that it still has an effect on the market 2 almost 3 years later.


So basically you're unhappy because New Eden isn't a socialist universe where equality is forced on everyone by an all-powerful government?

Good luck.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#43 - 2014-06-08 23:09:21 UTC
Abel Kugisa wrote:
What would be the solution for your problem? There probably isn't a good solution.

If you want to compete in the procurer market you still can. You just have to buy all procurers on the market. Then you are in the position of those lucky speculators which stock piled so many procurers years ago.


Exactly.

Material cost is 21.9M with perfect skills and a perfect blueprint. They're currently selling for 16.6M in JITA.

There are about 12,000 procurers for sale right now below the manufacturing price. Buy them all, your dollar cost average will be about 19M, then put them back up for sale at 21.5M.

You'll be undercutting everyone else on the market, and you'll make 4% profit more than anyone else building them.

You'd net about 30B isk if you did that.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2014-06-08 23:11:06 UTC
Abel Kugisa wrote:
What would be the solution for your problem? There probably isn't a good solution.

If you want to compete in the procurer market you still can. You just have to buy all procurers on the market. Then you are in the position of those lucky speculators which stock piled so many procurers years ago.


I'm not quite sure what the solution should be, i dont think the people who invested in them should be penalised in any way and as someone mentioned i'm not trying to "snatch their toys"

as i pointed out with mineral inflation even if they were reprocessed the people who invested in them would still make a profit, considering it costs more for me to buy the minerals than the price of the the procurer i'm not entirely sure why they aren't reprocessing them themselves... i'm new to industry so perhaps the mechanics are escaping me.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-06-08 23:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
Gospadin wrote:
There are about 12,000 procurers for sale right now below the manufacturing price


And there is a forum post a couple of weeks/months old with ONE guy who has about 8000 of them.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#46 - 2014-06-08 23:13:36 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
[quote=Abel Kugisa]There are about 12,000 procurers for sale right now below the manufacturing price


And there is a forum post a couple of weeks/months old with ONE guy who has about 8000 of them.


So?

What was his asking price?

If it's significantly below 21.9M, you too can invest the kind of capital he invested, and corner the market yourself.
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
#47 - 2014-06-08 23:17:06 UTC
well, other than the OP being a whiner ...

i was one of the people that took advantage of the barge changes. i was low enough on capital at the time, that i even built a few thousand of the things (retrievers and procurers) to sell to speculators BEFORE the patch--i made billions on JUST their speculating. After the patch, i had to sit on the stock for 6 months before it became a good idea to sell the ships.

months before selling? what? still not selling years later?

OP--here's why CCP shouldnt, and wouldnt do something about this:

Say i build 2k retrivers before the patch--this was an investment of my capital. If i still have 1000 now, you want to know why? Well, the reason is because their sell price has not approached their current build price. :::::THIS IS KEY:::: for me to be able to build retrievers for a profit (the same thing you want to do) i have to sell what i have now for a profit--so i can afford the materials to build the new generation.

in short....

CCP wouldnt do something about this, because holders of stock built from a previous generation, have to do their best to sell it for near current build prices (or, if impatient, for lower than current build cost), because they will need the capital to reinvest in building more of the current generation after they sell.

you see, them selling at a loss to current build prices, is them not being able to produce the same amount of ships later...

so ccp sees that... and there's not a darn thing that can be done.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2014-06-08 23:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
Gospadin wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
[quote=Abel Kugisa]There are about 12,000 procurers for sale right now below the manufacturing price


And there is a forum post a couple of weeks/months old with ONE guy who has about 8000 of them.


So?

What was his asking price?

If it's significantly below 21.9M, you too can invest the kind of capital he invested, and corner the market yourself.


And all i would be doing is taking advantage of the same mechanic i take issue with.... i don't have a problem with people cornering a market but that isn't what this is.

If the government said today that all homes require 40% more matierals starting tomorrow and i build 100,000 houses today that isn't cornering the market and it has nothing to do with capitalism.

The patch has stifled competititon on this item... the people who took advantage of it didn't earn it, they aren't entitled to it. It just happened and the effects are still here today

So far noone has provided any logical reason as to why it should stay this way.

Granted i'm not sure what the solution should be but waiting years for the stock to run out doesn't seem like the best option.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2014-06-08 23:25:51 UTC
Fal Dara wrote:
Say i build 2k retrivers before the patch--this was an investment of my capital. If i still have 1000 now, you want to know why? Well, the reason is because their sell price has not approached their current build price.



The reason you haven't sold them has nothing to do with the cost of manufacturing them.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#50 - 2014-06-08 23:29:59 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
[quote=Abel Kugisa]There are about 12,000 procurers for sale right now below the manufacturing price


And there is a forum post a couple of weeks/months old with ONE guy who has about 8000 of them.


So?

What was his asking price?

If it's significantly below 21.9M, you too can invest the kind of capital he invested, and corner the market yourself.


And all i would be doing is taking advantage of the same mechanic i take issue with.... i don't have a problem with people cornering a market but that isn't what this is.

If the government said today that all homes require 40% more matierals starting tomorrow and i build 100,000 houses today that isn't cornering the market and it has nothing to do with capitalism.

The patch has stifled competititon on this item... the people who took advantage of it didn't earn it, they aren't entitled to it. It just happened and the effects are still here today

So far noone has provided any logical reason as to why it should stay this way.

Granted i'm not sure what the solution should be but waiting years for the stock to run out doesn't seem like the best option.


It is the best option.

Extra materials exist to prevent people with those huge stockpiles from turning them into minerals and building other flavor-of-the-month items more cheaply than you. However, the side effect is that people are locked into selling (eventually) their old production stocks, which has tied up their capital and prevents them from entering all markets at once essentially.

Note that the reprocessing nerf next month fixes half of the above issue (penalizes conversion back into minerals) which then allows them to more freely rebalance manufacturing costs without hurting their own economy's efficiency.

Remember also that *no* prices in EVE are static (except for skillbooks) and the value of capital evolves over time, so while they're sitting on huge stocks of procurers due to their speculation, they're also unable to respond to changing markets because of the hundreds of billions in capital that is locked into that production.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#51 - 2014-06-08 23:30:45 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
So far noone has provided any logical reason as to why it should stay this way.


You have yet to provide a reason why it's a problem.

Aside from crying about how other people are winning the market and you're not.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#52 - 2014-06-08 23:33:53 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
If the government said today that all homes require 40% more matierals starting tomorrow and i build 100,000 houses today that isn't cornering the market and it has nothing to do with capitalism.


Um, yes you likely would be cornering the market for a short time, and yes it would be capitalist to do.

The first sentence in wikipedia on capitalism is "Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are controlled by private owners with the goal of making profits."

What you described above (You, as a private owner build 100,000 houses today with the goals of making 40% profits tomorrow) exactly fits with the definition of capitalism.

Yes, the government interfered a bit, but you don't need a complete lack of government interference to still be considered capitalism.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2014-06-08 23:42:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:
So far noone has provided any logical reason as to why it should stay this way.


You have yet to provide a reason why it's a problem.

Aside from crying about how other people are winning the market and you're not.


Im sorry but not being able to compete in a market for 2 almost 3 years because of a patch change is a problem and if you cant see that then i dont know what to say but resort to your adhominem attacks and say im crying as if it gives your argument any more depth.

You just look stupid every time you do it.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2014-06-08 23:46:29 UTC
you know what, i'm done with this thread. You people are the reason this game cant keep players. Because it caters to people like you.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#55 - 2014-06-08 23:55:25 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
you know what, i'm done with this thread. You people are the reason this game cant keep players. Because it caters to people like you.


Translation:

"I am not handed things for free that other people worked for, so screw this!"

Oh, and can I have your stuff?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2014-06-08 23:58:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:
you know what, i'm done with this thread. You people are the reason this game cant keep players. Because it caters to people like you.


Translation:

"I am not handed things for free that other people worked for, so screw this!"

Oh, and can I have your stuff?


Despite saying i was done with the thread i'm not going to let your douchebaggery go unanswered.

Not once have i asked to be handed something for free but you clearly have a problem with reading comprehension so carry on.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#57 - 2014-06-09 00:06:19 UTC
im with the 'tough ****' crowd.

its the lesser of the evils.

in the mean time, start building other things. or ask for a buff to ganking/nerf to procurer ehp.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
#58 - 2014-06-09 03:30:28 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Fal Dara wrote:
Say i build 2k retrivers before the patch--this was an investment of my capital. If i still have 1000 now, you want to know why? Well, the reason is because their sell price has not approached their current build price.



The reason you haven't sold them has nothing to do with the cost of manufacturing them.


but i did...

what happened? you just stop reading right there?

it has EVERYTHING to do with manufacturing them. if i sell them for less than their current materials are worth now, then i am not going to be able to build as many of them later (because the cost to build went up!).

the people who may have massive numbers of these things, shouldnt (i would say cant, but that's just me) sell them untill, like you, they see it's at or near their NEW build costs....

THEY suffer the same problem you do! if they sell for below cost (and many are just re-selling ones they bought, actually, these are not the builders), they make no profit!

THEY cant build them right now either!!!

they make no profit, even if they have a thousand of them RIGHT NOW, because if you sell them for less than their build cost NOW--then you cant make as many as you just sold. you've lost ISK.

this is literally not even remotely a problem ANYONE can avoid--it's not profitable for ANYONE, so long as it's below current build cost, no matter what you made them for in the first place...

(i used to make billions a month on these ships, i make ZERO now--we all suffer. deal with it.)
Jane Mountain
Doomheim
#59 - 2014-06-09 03:49:45 UTC
Another thread where Kaarous Aldurald creates a toxic environment to discuss things in. I am awfully surprised. Roll

Kaarous, I don't even think you are wrong. I do however think you communicate in an extremely anti-social manner. If you worked at most companies, they wouldn't care if you are right or wrong. They would fire you for your attitude.

If only CCP could fire forum posters... Straight
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-06-09 04:03:42 UTC
I note that you have posted a thread in "Features and Ideas", that, in fact, lacks either a feature or an idea. I strongly recommend that you think of an idea to solve your perceived problem.

Also, I really don't think CCP is going to do anything about this. Like the slogan says, "Eve is real". In real life, God doesn't come in and steal your uranium if you've managed to stockpile the world's supply. Maybe that's hyperbole, but it doesn't matter. The point is, EVE is the type of game that tries to encourage underhanded tactics like this (or at least I think and hope it does). They saw a chance, took it, and came out on top. You are free (and even encouraged) to do the same, by buying or building ships and modules you think will go up in value.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"