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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Player Run Financial Institutions and Banking

Author
Saint Germain
Sekundu
#1 - 2014-06-06 18:15:51 UTC
At Fanfest we heard how CCP’s vision for EVE is that every structure in the game be constructable (and destructable) through player actions. We then saw an image of a stargate under construction, but I was already thinking about what kind of financial institutions could be created by players. We heard later on that the corporation system is due for an overhaul, so I expect some of the ideas below might be on the way already, but here is an initial idea I had for a new system of banking in EVE.

Current Accounts

The starting point for players and banks will be the ‘wallet,’ as it exists today. Newly created characters will get their opening 5,000 ISK and use the wallet as we all do daily. This wallet represents the default current account, administered by their starting NPC corporation.
After 30 days, wallet transactions begin to incur transaction charges, at a flat percentage rate. This applies every time money moves from one player to another.

The Caldari State has the State and Region Bank, the Gallente Federation has the Bank of Luminaire. Players will be able to switch their current account to either of these (or any other NPC bank that offers the service) at any time. These banks will offer a lower charges than the default current accounts. They would also offer charge-free transactions when dealing with entities of the same faction (NPC corporations and players) and within the area of control of their own faction (Empire high security space).

Transaction charges would also not apply to transfers made in low security or null security space, regardless of which bank the player uses.

That leaves the Intaki Bank, who offer charge-free banking to all customers, for all transfers, anywhere. To open an account with the Intaki Bank however, a capsuleer must travel to one of their stations, for an interview.

Issues:
Minimum and maximum charges?
Exact rate for charges?
No Amarr or Minmatar banking corporations?
What about wormhole space?
Saint Germain
Sekundu
#2 - 2014-06-06 18:16:33 UTC
Savings Accounts

The next level of banking will be provided by investment corporations (NPC examples are Modern Finances, Caldari Funds Unlimited, Garoun Investment Bank). These institutions offer a range of ways for capsuleers to invest their money, in return for interest, or other benefits. These returns can be fixed, or variable. The variable return investments involve an element of risk, but the potential for real earnings. These types of accounts can also be provided by capsuleer-run corporations, ranging from fixed return, risk free investments, to more risky but potentially more rewarding ones.

Issues:
Interest paid on accounts by NPC corporations is an ISK faucet

Player-Run Investment Corporations

These corporations will all be underwritten by a Faction, as are the NPC investment corporations. In order to offer any investment, the corporation must have assets in a hangar that belongs to one of the Empire factions. These assets will be locked down for as long as the fund is in operation, although if new assets are added to the lockdown hangar, then other assets can be removed, as long as the total value covers the entire fund. In the case of blueprints used in this way, they can still be used for research or manufacturing jobs by the corporation, as normal.
For fixed rate, risk free investments, the value of the assets must exceed the total of money received from players, plus the interest payout needed for all existing investors. If the value of assets is insufficient to cover a new investor, then the prospective investment is cancelled. The corporation has no ability to cancel the fund early. When an investment completes, the corporation can pay back the principal plus interest from the corporation wallet, or, if that is not possible, the NPC faction takes assets from lockdown to cover the shortfall, and pays the investor their due, keeping any excess in a fund for other completed investments. Once all investments are completed, assets leave lockdown and return to the control of the corporation.

For variable return, risky investments, the value of assets locked down can be lower than the level needed to guarantee the fund, with lower levels allowing the promise of higher returns. The assets are liquidated as needed, paying off investors until nothing is left, in which case the investment fund is concluded, and remaining investors notified that the fund has collapsed.

Issues:
How to advertise?
How to notify investors?
Non-ISK returns? Items, loyalty points, standings?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-06-06 18:37:25 UTC
The problem with player-run financial institutions in EVE Online is twofold:

1. To be truly loyal to the EVE Online universe, player-run financial institutions need to be able to completely betray their customers' trust and run off to Space Mexico with all the money.

2. Everyone with a grain of common sense knows Point 1.

So for player-run financial institutions to be a worthwhile and usable addition to the EVE Online mechanics, there have to be very strong incentives for players to trust them, and there have to be both compelling reasons for players running these institutions not to abuse that trust and very serious repercussions for doing so.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-06-06 19:12:51 UTC
Aren't players already doing this on Market Discussions subforum?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Saint Germain
Sekundu
#5 - 2014-06-06 19:21:54 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Aren't players already doing this on Market Discussions subforum?


Investments run through the forums don't have much support in terms of in-game systems. The proposals I have outlined give some structure that players could use, I think, to run the same kind of investments that they already do, but they would have new options as well.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-06-06 19:24:44 UTC
Problem with real banks and financial institutions in EVE is that they would be subject universally to the same thing that would happen in RL if laws were as lax. The second a bank had enough money, it would be split up among the investors and they would all bail to some private island populated by the 10-30 of them and a couple thousand strippers of every flavor imaginable.

And you coudlnt have enforcable laws in EVE without omnipotent and arbitrary enforcement with punishments that woudl make running the whole scheme not worthwhile to anyone.
Saint Germain
Sekundu
#7 - 2014-06-06 19:26:31 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


So for player-run financial institutions to be a worthwhile and usable addition to the EVE Online mechanics, there have to be very strong incentives for players to trust them, and there have to be both compelling reasons for players running these institutions not to abuse that trust and very serious repercussions for doing so.


I think what I proposed allows for both extremes. There can be fully financed rock solid funds, with low returns, or more risky ones, with potential for high returns, or failure.

Also, the fact that these institutions would be built into the game, using the game's UI and so on, would probably allow more players to get involved in investing.
Saint Germain
Sekundu
#8 - 2014-06-06 19:31:33 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Problem with real banks and financial institutions in EVE is that they would be subject universally to the same thing that would happen in RL if laws were as lax. The second a bank had enough money, it would be split up among the investors and they would all bail to some private island populated by the 10-30 of them and a couple thousand strippers of every flavor imaginable.

And you coudlnt have enforcable laws in EVE without omnipotent and arbitrary enforcement with punishments that woudl make running the whole scheme not worthwhile to anyone.



The rules are enforced by requiring assets in lockdown before the fund begins, so unless the fund is offered as a very high risk venture, there is little risk of what you describe. If it is a high risk fund then yes, those who created the fund can keep the invested ISK, at the cost of losing their locked down assets.

What is more likely is that, after a long time of performing well and paying out, the value of the locked down assets becomes less of a risk to the fund managers, and they decide to 'cash in,' just as many EVE players have done in the past.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-06-06 19:36:14 UTC
Why not have the NPC banks provide the same services as a normal bank, albeit at moderate to high rates? If you have the security of that institution in-game, it would encourage player banking systems to be more reliable to be competitive (at least in a perfect world). People would pay lower rates for higher risk and higher returns.
That and CCP with its own virtual banking division to the game I think would be funny, since many people would be thrown off by how nice and well icelanders treat their customers. I hear they're better than canadians at it.
Saint Germain
Sekundu
#10 - 2014-06-06 19:56:56 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Why not have the NPC banks provide the same services as a normal bank, albeit at moderate to high rates? If you have the security of that institution in-game, it would encourage player banking systems to be more reliable to be competitive (at least in a perfect world). People would pay lower rates for higher risk and higher returns.
That and CCP with its own virtual banking division to the game I think would be funny, since many people would be thrown off by how nice and well icelanders treat their customers. I hear they're better than canadians at it.


I would see the NPC banks as being the most reliable, and the safest, but with the lowest rates of interest paid.

It would then be up to player-run banks to differentiate themselves somehow, but I think they would only do this by offering higher returns, they couldn't really be safer than the NPC banks, which are 100% safe in my proposal.

And yes, the Icelandic banking system is famous the world over!
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#11 - 2014-06-06 20:02:25 UTC
I have one idea that might work with yours.Players able to invest money in shares or something like wall street with the chance of the share going up or high depending on what the corp that has shares will be many wars and many winnings?People join a lot this company?People of this corp have many many iskies and assetes and stuff liek that.Maybe this could work since CCP is better in maths than me.!

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!

Saint Germain
Sekundu
#12 - 2014-06-06 20:04:50 UTC
Egravant Alduin wrote:
I have one idea that might work with yours.Players able to invest money in shares or something like wall street with the chance of the share going up or high depending on what the corp that has shares will be many wars and many winnings?People join a lot this company?People of this corp have many many iskies and assetes and stuff liek that.Maybe this could work since CCP is better in maths than me.!


Yeah, that would be cool. I'd see that as part of the corporation overhaul that they have planned though, I don't think the current shares system works very well.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#13 - 2014-06-06 21:11:01 UTC
I am running a banking service for a good time, 5% rate per month, send isk with reason "banking investment" to start your account.

Lol

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Saint Germain
Sekundu
#14 - 2014-06-09 11:15:41 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
I am running a banking service for a good time, 5% rate per month, send isk with reason "banking investment" to start your account.

Lol



ISK sent!

But seriously, do you think these proposals would make it easier to run your business? Easier to reach more investors?
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#15 - 2014-06-09 11:34:39 UTC
There is a very big reason why player owned banks are not that widespread in EVE. So big that it made the international news a few years ago.
Saint Germain
Sekundu
#16 - 2014-06-09 12:18:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
There is a very big reason why player owned banks are not that widespread in EVE. So big that it made the international news a few years ago.


You are correct, hence my suggestion of some structures to enhance this area. There is already gameplay in this area, but it is mostly created outside the game, rather than by using in-game tools.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#17 - 2014-06-09 16:24:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
There is a very big reason why player owned banks are not that widespread in EVE. So big that it made the international news a few years ago.

This.

Trust in EVE is the rarest of commodities.

I'm right behind you

Marsha Mallow
#18 - 2014-06-09 16:52:28 UTC
I'd rather see better share mechanics and trading tools for player run investment schemes than NPC banks. As you mentioned, it's another ISK faucet. There have been concerted steps away from passive ISK making in recent years (think datacore changes). Considering how many people leave game or periodically unsub with their ISK intact it'd just carry on snowballing and exacerbate ingame inflation.

An alternative might be to improve Plex trading (which a lot of people dabble in for investment purposes) by introducing better ingame tools.

If CCP try to create a dynamic investment scheme via NPCs they'll undermine the player run side of it and end up with problems building risk in that players would accept.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day