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High sec GANKING
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#121 - 2014-06-07 12:44:48 UTC
Axe Coldon wrote:

The people that want to gank would whine and cry and complain..but the game would be better off and more new players would stay in the game.


New players don't have freighters. At least be honest about your selfish, entitled motivations.

Quote:
Criminal activity in high sec has gotten out of hand.


CCP's own numbers they have provided us about destruction of ships disagrees. In fact it's at a very low ebb in the last few years.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#122 - 2014-06-07 12:49:22 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:


The hauler could just insure himself by making a courier contract to outsource the risk to another hauler. Another idea.

But besides this, you missed my point. If the hauler refuses to take the risk of hauling, he doesn't haul and essentially doesn't get paid. If a ganker refuses to gank because he thinks the target isn't ideal, he doesn't get paid either.


Lol come on now. Outsourcing doesnt touch the issue at all. It's still an issue for the ppl u outsourced to xD.

This is why your point is offbase:
Correct me if I have misinterpreted something here. you are saying:
Quote:

The hauler could avoid a gank by choosing not to haul, but wont get paid
The ganker could refuse to gank, but wont get paid.
Therefore, the risk taken by haulers and gankers is very similar.


The major problem with this logic is that it is comparing the risks of inactivity. You could compare any professions in this way. For example:
Quote:

A hisec mission runner could avoid loosing his ship by not running missions, but he doesnt get paid
A null ratter could avoid loosing his ship by not ratting, but he doesnt get paid.
Therefore, the risks of hisec mission running and null ratting are very similar.


Sure, if both are logged off or sitting in a station, the risks are the same; however, the risks when engaging in said professions are very different.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#123 - 2014-06-07 12:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
baltec1 wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:

It's kinda like how since I don't run red lights, there is no risk to running red lights.


Did I get that right?


If we are going to use RL examples;

Flying an untanked, cargo expanded hauler stuffed full of goods is like loading a $billion of gold onto the back of this being driven by this person past these upstanding individuals.


To continue RL examples. hisec ganking ingame is like getting caught by the police while mugging someone, and using in cash in the victim's wallet to pay for your legal expenses
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#124 - 2014-06-07 12:53:16 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:


An alternative statement for your first sentence is that the hauler chooses to risk more.


Only if they chose to not use any of the tools and tactics that would protect them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2014-06-07 12:54:54 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:

It's kinda like how since I don't run red lights, there is no risk to running red lights.


Did I get that right?


If we are going to use RL examples;

Flying an untanked, cargo expanded hauler stuffed full of goods is like loading a $billion of gold onto the back of this being driven by this person past these upstanding individuals.


To continue RL examples. hisec ganking ingame is like getting caught mugging someone by the police, and using in cash in the victims wallet to pay for your legal expenses


No its exactly the same as you just quoted. We wait for the flatbed to wander up with a driver not paying any attention and take their goods in a hail of RPGs.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#126 - 2014-06-07 12:57:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


An alternative statement for your first sentence is that the hauler chooses to risk more.


Only if they chose to not use any of the tools and tactics that would protect them.

While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#127 - 2014-06-07 12:58:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:

It's kinda like how since I don't run red lights, there is no risk to running red lights.


Did I get that right?


If we are going to use RL examples;

Flying an untanked, cargo expanded hauler stuffed full of goods is like loading a $billion of gold onto the back of this being driven by this person past these upstanding individuals.


To continue RL examples. hisec ganking ingame is like getting caught mugging someone by the police, and using in cash in the victims wallet to pay for your legal expenses


No its exactly the same as you just quoted. We wait for the flatbed to wander up with a driver not paying any attention and take their goods in a hail of RPGs.


This would be true in null sec. But in hisec you are caught by the police.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#128 - 2014-06-07 13:00:42 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


An alternative statement for your first sentence is that the hauler chooses to risk more.


Only if they chose to not use any of the tools and tactics that would protect them.

While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions.


What tools would those be?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#129 - 2014-06-07 13:01:28 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:


This would be true in null sec. But in hisec you are caught by the police.


And punished, every time.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#130 - 2014-06-07 13:07:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


This would be true in null sec. But in hisec you are caught by the police.


And punished, every time.


Only with very very little risk.
You know what the fee is beforehand.
You have an idea of how much the target is worth.

The kicker is that you can pay these fees with the victim's money. This isnt exactly punishment.

Pullin some moar RL stuffs:
This is like making the punishment for bankrobbery a fine, but you are allowed to pay the fine with the bank's money.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#131 - 2014-06-07 13:10:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions.


What tools would those be?


Yeah, I'd like to know that too.

What, precisely what tools and tactics do gankers have that haulers and miners don't?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#132 - 2014-06-07 13:15:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


An alternative statement for your first sentence is that the hauler chooses to risk more.


Only if they chose to not use any of the tools and tactics that would protect them.

While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions.


What tools would those be?

scanners
passive targeters
eft
show info
scouts
moar ships
penalty documentation

You have an idea of whether or not the gank will be worthwhile before you attempt the gank. The hauler doesn't know whether or not the precautions he is taking are enough until its too late.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#133 - 2014-06-07 13:17:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions.


What tools would those be?


Yeah, I'd like to know that too.

What, precisely what tools and tactics do gankers have that haulers and miners don't?


From a tactics standpoint, getting to choose the targets
Haulers and miners dont get to hand pick their gankers
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#134 - 2014-06-07 13:21:58 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

From a tactics standpoint, getting to choose the targets
Haulers and miners dont get to hand pick their gankers


No, but they are 100% capable of choosing their haul. They have all the advantage.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#135 - 2014-06-07 13:26:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

From a tactics standpoint, getting to choose the targets
Haulers and miners dont get to hand pick their gankers


No, but they are 100% capable of choosing their haul. They have all the advantage.


No.
for the hauler:
By choosing lower valued goods, they are hit with opportunity cost
By choosing a more valuable haul, the are risking getting ganked and taking an actual capital loss.

for the ganker:
their net losses are generally limited to opportunity costs
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#136 - 2014-06-07 13:28:27 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Sigras wrote:

The point he is making is that as an industrialist, you can also do the calculation to see whether or not you're gank-profitable.

If you dont do the math, you're an idiot, if you do the math and dont care then you deserve it.

My argument is about the risk taken by the ganking profession.

As a ganker, you only take a loss if you make a mistake in your assessment of your target. You pick a target that is too tanking or not worth the isk you spent on your ganking ships.

Aggressor has the advantage 99% of the time in EVE. Big friggin' deal. This isn't unique to highsec ganking. The point is to make sure the guy next to you is the aggressee. You don't have to run faster than a bear, you just have to run faster than the guy next to you.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#137 - 2014-06-07 13:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Sigras wrote:

The point he is making is that as an industrialist, you can also do the calculation to see whether or not you're gank-profitable.

If you dont do the math, you're an idiot, if you do the math and dont care then you deserve it.

My argument is about the risk taken by the ganking profession.

As a ganker, you only take a loss if you make a mistake in your assessment of your target. You pick a target that is too tanking or not worth the isk you spent on your ganking ships.

Aggressor has the advantage 99% of the time in EVE. Big friggin' deal. This isn't unique to highsec ganking. The point is to make sure the guy next to you is the aggressee. You don't have to run faster than a bear, you just have to run faster than the guy next to you.

We are getting somewhere.

"Aggressor has the advantage 99% of the time in EVE."

^ I would happen to agree. I also agree that this isnt unique to highsec ganking.

What is unique to highsec ganking is that the gankers get to take the role the aggressor 99% of the time.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#138 - 2014-06-07 13:33:11 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

No.
for the hauler:
By choosing lower valued goods, they are hit with opportunity cost
By choosing a more valuable haul, the are risking getting ganked and taking an actual capital loss.

for the ganker:
their net losses are generally limited to opportunity costs


The haulers have that choice. They are literally the only ones who determine the risk/reward ratio of hauling. Not the gankers.

They have all the advantage in this regard because their choice can, if they choose correctly, almost completely mitigate the options of the potential gankers.

If you fit sensibly and don't over stuff your cargo hold, you will almost never die. If you don't autopilot into the bargain, the chance of dying gets even lower.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#139 - 2014-06-07 13:34:38 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

What is unique to highsec ganking is that the gankers get to take the role the aggressor 99% of the time.


When you deliberately make the choice to be a prey animal, that tends to be the effect.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#140 - 2014-06-07 13:43:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

No.
for the hauler:
By choosing lower valued goods, they are hit with opportunity cost
By choosing a more valuable haul, the are risking getting ganked and taking an actual capital loss.

for the ganker:
their net losses are generally limited to opportunity costs


The haulers have that choice. They are literally the only ones who determine the risk/reward ratio of hauling. Not the gankers.

They have all the advantage in this regard because their choice can, if they choose correctly, almost completely mitigate the options of the potential gankers.

If you fit sensibly and don't over stuff your cargo hold, you will almost never die. If you don't autopilot into the bargain, the chance of dying gets even lower.

I agree with almost everything you have said in your reply.
haulers make risk / reward decisions. And these decisions are not relative to the actual threat posed by gankers, as the haulers path could potential be gank fleet free.

Where is the ganker's risk / reward decision? They have an idea of the ehp of a target they can take, the rough value of said target, they know their penalties in advance, they handpick a target.
They have nearly a complete picture of their risks.
What if gankers had a few unknowns to deal with as well? such as not knowing the cargo value of their target.