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High sec GANKING
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#221 - 2014-06-07 17:58:06 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

Why should gankers get to bypass all targets that would guarantee them a loss?


Why should freighters be able to overload their cargo without consequence?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#222 - 2014-06-07 18:01:20 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Ganking was heavily nerfed with JF/freighter buff.

You can get over 1 million HP on JFs.

And you poor babies want more.


I would be fine if the gankers had to commit to a gank before being able to so accurately assess whether or not it would be in their best interest. Possibly a change to cargo / ship scanners?

I would be fine if the haulers had to commit to a haul before being able to so accurately assess whether or not it would be in their best interest to accept the collateral.

You know it goes both ways.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#223 - 2014-06-07 18:12:35 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:


Why should gankers get to bypass all targets that would guarantee them a loss?


We dont, we spend huge amounts of time scanning to find the few targets worth ganking. What you want is to destroy an entire profession simply because you cannot be bothered to protect yourself.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2014-06-07 18:38:47 UTC
The real griefers here are the greedy and selfish people flying paper thin ships to maximize ISK creation, and as a direct result driving up PLEX prices and creating more work for us smart pilots that fly ships more suited to the dangers of space.

So cry more greedy worms! I bet you secretly skin kittens too.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#225 - 2014-06-07 18:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I have noticed that in every confrontation between the predators and the prey, the entirety of the proverbial "bottom line" rests solely and squarely on the unwillingness of the prey to do those simple few things that would result in them being less-attractive targets.

Miners refuse to fit a tank because it reduces their yield.

Haulers refuse to fly with a cargo hold that has not been positively crammed full because it reduces their profit.

Both groups refuse to remain attentive and aware of their surroundings. Both groups insist that they will not fly with proper escorts.

In both cases, laziness and greed are significantly at play and the result of this is that both groups die in significant fireballs and throw ... significant hissy-fits in CCP's direction demanding nerfs, claiming they are at an extreme disadvantage while having the exact same tools available to them that their predators have.

As a highsec resident myself, I think it's time we saw more CONCORD-monitored spacelanes burning in a manner akin to Jita. Dodixie comes to mind, being a market hub and mission hub both.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#226 - 2014-06-07 18:59:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


Why should gankers get to bypass all targets that would guarantee them a loss?


We dont, we spend huge amounts of time scanning to find the few targets worth ganking. What you want is to destroy an entire profession simply because you cannot be bothered to protect yourself.


hm... i dont think we are on the same page.

Why should you be able accurately determine who the good targets are, without throwing some guaranteed poor targets into the mix.

I mean, examples from other parts of the game:
Hauler and miners dont necessarily know who, where, or how capable the gankers are.
A contract you see may or may not have set appropriate collateral.
A cloaker in system may or may not be AFK.
The info about items on the market may or may not be artificially influenced.

But in many of instances like these, you dont necessarily find out until after ur committed to a particular action
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#227 - 2014-06-07 19:08:25 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:


hm... i dont think we are on the same page.

Why should you be able accurately determine who the good targets are, without throwing some guaranteed poor targets into the mix.

I mean, examples from other parts of the game:
Hauler and miners dont necessarily know who, where, or how capable the gankers are.
A contract you see may or may not have set appropriate collateral.
A cloaker in system may or may not be AFK.
The info about items on the market may or may not be artificially influenced.

But in many of instances like these, you dont necessarily find out until after ur committed to a particular action

So you want us to just aimlessly gank everyone that comes through the gate.

OKAY!

Isn't griefing without a profit in mind illegal though?

Seriously if I wasn't aware there are less bright individuals in this world I'd have thought you were a troll.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#228 - 2014-06-07 19:09:14 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Arya Regnar wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Ganking was heavily nerfed with JF/freighter buff.

You can get over 1 million HP on JFs.

And you poor babies want more.


I would be fine if the gankers had to commit to a gank before being able to so accurately assess whether or not it would be in their best interest. Possibly a change to cargo / ship scanners?

I would be fine if the haulers had to commit to a haul before being able to so accurately assess whether or not it would be in their best interest to accept the collateral.

You know it goes both ways.

Contracting is a good example.
If you want to take advantage of someone who set their collateral too low. Many times, you cant be certain the contract is in your best interest before you accept it.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#229 - 2014-06-07 19:10:16 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


hm... i dont think we are on the same page.

Why should you be able accurately determine who the good targets are, without throwing some guaranteed poor targets into the mix.

I mean, examples from other parts of the game:
Hauler and miners dont necessarily know who, where, or how capable the gankers are.
A contract you see may or may not have set appropriate collateral.
A cloaker in system may or may not be AFK.
The info about items on the market may or may not be artificially influenced.

But in many of instances like these, you dont necessarily find out until after ur committed to a particular action

So you want us to just aimlessly gank everyone that comes through the gate.

OKAY!

Isn't griefing without a profit in mind illegal though?

Seriously if I wasn't aware there are less bright individuals in this world I'd have thought you were a troll.


you missed out on the first part of the convo
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#230 - 2014-06-07 19:10:46 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

Hauler and miners dont necessarily know who, where, or how capable the gankers are.


I'm sorry, that's just not true.

You know there will be gankers in Perimeter. You know there will be gankers in Uedama. And in Balle, and in Osmon and Amamake and in half a dozen other hotspots.

And you know full well that they will have sufficient force to overpower a typical freighter. You can even find out who they are by perusing killboards.

So this argument that haulers are the only people in all of EVE who are somehow denied this information is absolutely a lie, and you need to stop repeating it. Anyone who doesn't have that information is someone who has made the choice to remain ignorant. And their ignorance should be punished.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#231 - 2014-06-07 19:20:52 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

Why should you be able accurately determine who the good targets are, without throwing some guaranteed poor targets into the mix.




Because without that it is impossible to earn a living as a pirate.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#232 - 2014-06-07 19:23:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

stuff about haulers and miners


I know we arent going to come to an agreement about miners and haulers. that is clear

For the sake of argument and to stay on the topic of ganking, let's pull another point from the list in the post you quoted, like contracting.

If someone is stupid and sets collateral that does not cover the items in the contract. They deserve taking a loss. But even if a person spends the time to sift through contract after contract find someone who set theirs up improperly. In most cases, you really cant be completely sure that the collateral doesn't cover the items. you find out after committing.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#233 - 2014-06-07 19:26:50 UTC
Just like how, after you kill somebody, you don't know what loot dropped until after you've already lost your ship(s) to CONCORD.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#234 - 2014-06-07 19:33:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Just like how, after you kill somebody, you don't know what loot dropped until after you've already lost your ship(s) to CONCORD.

That is not the same. You know what loot has a possibility of dropping. You know the chance that the loot will drop.

In the contract scenario. you end up making a guess based on volume vs collateral. Which will bite you should you be wrong
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#235 - 2014-06-07 19:38:40 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Just like how, after you kill somebody, you don't know what loot dropped until after you've already lost your ship(s) to CONCORD.

That is not the same. You know what loot has a possibility of dropping. You know the chance that the loot will drop.

In the contract scenario. you end up making a guess based on volume vs collateral. Which will bite you should you be wrong


You're really reaching, and it's not working.

Oh, and in a contract theft scenario, by the way, if you guess right, you get the whole tamale, 100% of the time. You don't get a 50/50 chance for each piece of loot in the package.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#236 - 2014-06-07 19:39:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

Why should you be able accurately determine who the good targets are, without throwing some guaranteed poor targets into the mix.




Because without that it is impossible to earn a living as a pirate.


how about decreasing ehp + decreasing cargo scanner accuracy?
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#237 - 2014-06-07 19:39:46 UTC
CONCORD needs to be nerfed so prepared players can have a little fun fighting back against gankers, and the gankers should have a chance to escape with "the law" chasing them down for a bit.

Right now the encounters are too dull and predictable for both sides imo.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#238 - 2014-06-07 19:45:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Oh, and in a contract theft scenario, by the way, if you guess right, you get the whole tamale, 100% of the time. You don't get a 50/50 chance for each piece of loot in the package.

But you have no idea what the package is worth before hand or how many pieces of loot there are. You buy in blind.

That's an interesting point though.

Would you be down for decreased cargo scanner accuracy for increased drop rates?
Sigras
Conglomo
#239 - 2014-06-07 19:47:14 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Sigras wrote:
The point he is making is that as an industrialist, you can also do the calculation to see whether or not you're gank-profitable.

If you dont do the math, you're an idiot, if you do the math and dont care then you deserve it.

My argument is about the risk taken by the ganking profession.

As a ganker, you only take a loss if you make a mistake in your assessment of your target. You pick a target that is too tanking or not worth the isk you spent on your ganking ships.

You mean other than the fact that the correct loot has to drop to make your gank worthwhile? But sure, given the law of large numbers, if you have deep enough pockets to buy your way out of a dry spell then yes.

You realize that there are several things in Eve that you only have risk if you mistake your assessment of the target right? Like 90% of PvP?

You say that like it's a bad thing... Do you realize that if all industrialists stopped being morons and hauling gank worthy loads then gankers would soon go out of business?

Really the fact that gankers exist is because moronic industrialists exist.

Can you give me an alternative? how would the system work if you were in control? what other way would you do it?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#240 - 2014-06-07 19:51:21 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

Would you be down for decreased cargo scanner accuracy for increased drop rates?


By doing that, you have completely boned any mission runner who likes to use faction or deadspace modules. Ganking (or especially invading) them just became entirely too profitable.

Which would have a big negative backlash effect on the high meta modules market.

Nevermind that it would break capital ship loot tables, as high meta items are commonly found on them as well.

Rather than fiddling with numerous interconnected game systems, why not just fit for tank, and manually pilot?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.