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So EVE is becoming just a rental universe now is it?
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#201 - 2014-06-10 14:08:06 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
I fail to see how ingame entities acting more like real world factions is a bad thing. At least the renters are using the space.

It's bad becuse this is a game, and games are supposed to be fun. Landlord Online sounds like a pretty crappy game title, tbh. There's a couple of reasons that the nullsec entities don't use that space they're renting:

A. They don't have to, and
B. It's not worth the effort of using it, anyway.

So they rent it to people who wouldn't be able to get into nullsec any other way, which is fine, except that now the bored PvPers have to fly farther to find people to shoot. Which results in boredom and frustration whenthey fly all the way out there to find no fights. So the bored Pvpers unsub - which damages the game because we have less content creators. So more people unsub. And so on.

Unsub due to boredom is the beginning of the death spiral for all games, not just Eve. But if CCP catches it early enough, they can excise it like a cancer, and we can have another 10 years.


I don't believe rental space is the disease, it is the symptom. It's one reason I designed Sovereignty 2.0 the way I did, to encourage procedural conquest without exponential growth while providing benefits to actually owning and using the space. But of course, CCP ignored the soul of the idea and what we have now is a bastard child.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#202 - 2014-06-10 14:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
De'Veldrin wrote:


So they rent it to people who wouldn't be able to get into nullsec any other way, which is fine, except that now the bored PvPers have to fly farther to find people to shoot. Which results in boredom and frustration whenthey fly all the way out there to find no fights. So the bored Pvpers unsub - which damages the game because we have less content creators. So more people unsub. And so on.


They have to fly farther into nullsec to do what? Attack the core of the landlords or just headshot the renters?

What happened to Catch and Provi being the best areas to do random PvP in?

Edit: I don't think we share the same definition of PvP...
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#203 - 2014-06-10 14:17:34 UTC
Maybe with the new development cycles they'll manage to chew through everything related to sov and no longer choke when they try to swallow the thing whole for a biannual release cycle. It seems to me POS and sov are the fermented shark bits of EVE Online.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#204 - 2014-06-10 14:19:42 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:


I don't believe rental space is the disease, it is the symptom.


And I agree with you on that - it's the symptom of a lot of the things that wrong with nullsec.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#205 - 2014-06-10 14:24:18 UTC
Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#206 - 2014-06-10 17:15:02 UTC
Rent? Why pay rent for null space? All you need is a T3, a secure container and a mobile depot and all of null sec is yours.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2014-06-10 17:59:11 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires


Let us take highsec sov :getin:.

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In-Game Tools Please
Doomheim
#208 - 2014-06-10 18:02:18 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires


Let us take highsec sov :getin:.

Thought Goons got along with James. Why you taking his territory?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2014-06-10 18:07:57 UTC
In-Game Tools Please wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires


Let us take highsec sov :getin:.

Thought Goons got along with James. Why you taking his territory?


Money as always, we only want dodixie, jita, amarr, rens, and hek. James can have the rest.

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#210 - 2014-06-10 18:09:34 UTC
Seriously though, jam as much firepower and tonnage into one Amarr-owned system as you can and demand that the system be ceded to you.

Set a precedent.

Make the False Emperor take you seriously

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Klatu Satori
Shadows of the Black
#211 - 2014-06-10 21:18:03 UTC
Sov null is dominated by a couple of super-coalitions because:

1. The current sov mechanics necessitate the use of huge numbers in huge ships. No other type of armada is viable in sov warfare.

2. Those very same ships, the caps and supercaps, are orders of magnitude faster, more agile, and secure when travelling on the macro scale than subcaps.

Fix those two issues and sov null will become much more interesting and dynamic. There are related problems with industry, pve and the value of sov space, but those aren't the things that enable super-coalitions to exist and thrive.

Control-based Sovereignty System
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#212 - 2014-06-10 22:27:27 UTC
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
So:

1) Use income from renter empire to fortify and defend nullsec sphere of interest, including building cap fleets of immeasurable power projection potential.

2) Use increased military might to extend empire by negotiating/strongarming immediate neighbors into NAPs/renter alliances. Increases renter income over time.

3) Make - possibly time limited - NAPs with any power block large enough to be a credible threat to your renter empire.

4) Enforce / demand mandatory fleet participation levels of friendly PvP coalition 'partners', yet don't enforce this except during times of dire need / risk from (the) other major nullsec power block(s).

5) Use renter income to implement SRP among your own core alliance in place of mandatory fleet participation policies, possibly even allowing common line soldiers to directly profit from any PvP losses. Ensures high 'core' fleet participation in case of dire need (IE. any major battle, which actually matters).

6) Use renter income to fund suicide/harassment campaigns of independent PvE players living in HiSec, directly or indirectly (Burn Jita, Miniluv, COREdot...). Serves several purposes:
- Entertaining your own PvP line members during periods of nullsec peace.
- Making it harder for your own members to 'defect' back to HiSec due to their low sec status 'earned' during HiSec ganking campaigns.
- 'Enticing' the HiSec 'pubbies' to join your legions of PvE renter slaves. Over time more renter slaves means increased renter income.

7) Goto 1. Rinse. Repeat.

If this is accurate, then over time we should see an increased level of HiSec harassment, as the disposable income and logistics resources available to The Lord of the Flies increase in proportion to the number of renter peons. Eventually this could make an independent existence in Empire unsustainable. Consider the current number of gankers active in HiSec at any given time is probably less than a few hundred or so.

I feel like Dinsdale now. Shocked


You are more clever than you probaly think

Garandras wrote:
I have to say I am loving the amount of blame Goons for this renting culture..

Goons were basically the last to jump on the renting bandwagon

Strategicly wise not but they were the first and gained the most from dominion expansion... or do you rlly find it coiincedance that they were given Deklein (best true sec, most tech moons) from TCF just weeks before the expansion launch?...

Ramona McCandless wrote:
Seriously though, jam as much firepower and tonnage into one Amarr-owned system as you can and demand that the system be ceded to you.

Set a precedent.

Make the False Emperor take you seriously

And fight the 120 rr super fleets with sticks and stones!

I sometimes multitask 5 nyx and a erebus... howabout you?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#213 - 2014-06-10 22:32:30 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:


Ramona McCandless wrote:
Seriously though, jam as much firepower and tonnage into one Amarr-owned system as you can and demand that the system be ceded to you.

Set a precedent.

Make the False Emperor take you seriously

And fight the 120 rr super fleets with sticks and stones!

I sometimes multitask 5 nyx and a erebus... howabout you?


Its unclear which side you think will win

Especially as you cant get carriers and supes into high sec

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#214 - 2014-06-11 00:46:01 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
In-Game Tools Please wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires

Let us take highsec sov :getin:.

Thought Goons got along with James. Why you taking his territory?

Money as always, we only want dodixie, jita, amarr, rens, and hek. James can have the rest.

We already did, remember that RVB are us, according to accurate sources like Gevlon Goblin.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#215 - 2014-06-11 00:49:50 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
In-Game Tools Please wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires

Let us take highsec sov :getin:.

Thought Goons got along with James. Why you taking his territory?

Money as always, we only want dodixie, jita, amarr, rens, and hek. James can have the rest.

We already did, remember that RVB are us, according to accurate sources like Gevlon Goblin.

Choke highsec gates with wrecks and corpses

Yours or theirs it makes no difference

Make them understand you cannot be ignored

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#216 - 2014-06-11 00:55:47 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Choke highsec gates with wrecks and corpses

Yours or theirs it makes no difference

Make them understand you cannot be ignored

You were around during Burn Jita?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Amenity Project
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2014-06-11 01:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Amenity Project
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Choke highsec gates with wrecks and corpses

Yours or theirs it makes no difference

Make them understand you cannot be ignored

You were around during Burn Jita?

Burn Jita is pretty much irrelevant for 99% of the people.

The biggest impact it has on the most people is lag.


I even talked to your CSM about this.


All you did was go after freighters and expensive crap,
instead of causing chaos and destruction by roaming around in smaller groups
killing literally everybody.

How you people ignored all the morons around the gates is beyond me.


Try better next year, please?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#218 - 2014-06-11 01:04:51 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Choke highsec gates with wrecks and corpses

Yours or theirs it makes no difference

Make them understand you cannot be ignored

You were around during Burn Jita?


Its a start, but not big enough

Rivers of blood, the dead should blot out the suns

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ned Black
Driders
#219 - 2014-06-11 09:25:19 UTC
There is no easy fix to these problems...

The best way of countering thest things would would probably be to ruin eve from the ground up.

1. Total wipe of assets.
2. Remove free intel from the game (no mail about you getting hit or about somone putting up a POS in your area). If you don't live in your area you lose it. Simple as that.
3. Remove the ability to set people to blue. Its you and your corp. If you are friends with the rest it is on a name to name basis.
4. Rework power projection - Remove jumpclones, remove titan bridges (or force titans to jump at the end of the bridge period and/or severely limit the ability to bridge people)
5. Complete SOV revamp. Make supers less and subcaps more. Make it more based on actual presence than who have the biggest SC fleet available.
6. Preferrably remove supers from the game entirely.

If you really want to stirr the pot... make moon goo into something akin to PI or make moon goo circle... and oh yes that would **** the super aliances off to no end.

Might as well make a new game entirely...
Higgs Foton
Mission And Mining Inc
#220 - 2014-06-11 09:41:22 UTC
The reason the large rental empires came into fashion were the moongoo nerfes. When an organisation (and null sec alliances are very well organised, we not talking rambling high sec corps in their charming amateurism here) is faced with a nerf to their income, they will have to find something to compensate. Renting is that compensation. Nerfing other stuff has a similar effect: This leads to more organisation, and leads to more stagnation.

The solution is to stop having concord sov bills for sov and make it free. This combined with the introduction of about 20 to 30 new null sec region should make it more interesting. If an alliance is able to have a decent SRP without having the needs to rent out 4 or 5 regions, they will not rent out those regions, Very simple.

With a bunch of new regions and no incentive on taking them because an alliance has enough money from industry and moon mining alone, newer organisations can move into the gap.