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Carriers/Supercarriers reliably chewing up cruisers
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Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#1 - 2014-06-02 01:17:19 UTC
Noticed this on the test server, since fighters now count as drones, for the purposes of Drone Damage Amps and Omnidirectional Tracking Links, you can fit up a carrier to reliably kill cruisers with no trouble. Overheated, you can get tracking on fighters comparable to unbonused Ogres. A few times, I've been slaughtered in a Sacrilege by a single Thanatos with only two or three volleys from their Einherjs'.

Considering how dreadnoughts and other capitals have been balanced before, I think this is a mistake. How is someone supposed to hold down a supercarrier with a heavy interdictor, for example?
Sooyoung snsd
EndlessRain
Naval Defence Alliance
#2 - 2014-06-02 01:53:06 UTC
100% agree with the hic part. Fighters are designed for large targets. If they keep the bonuses for omni's to fighters then they need to remove the effectiveness for them
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-06-02 06:25:24 UTC
my 3k dps thanatos with 4km/s fighters is a monster. Has trouble hitting anything moving quickly, but considering the nature of interdictors, either being small and squishy and dieing horribly to smartbombs on supercaps, or being heavy and slow, they're in a terrible place now with the change, far too easy to **** hictors with carriers. I think they may be long overdue for a sig radius reduction and speed increase or something...
Olivia Berett
Advanced Weapon Supplement League
Fraternity.
#4 - 2014-06-02 14:37:45 UTC
I always thought that a big capital ship were supposed to balance to a group of smaller ships. If we have pricy capital ships that take tons of stuff to make and tons of work to operate and maneuver as weak as a couple of small ships, then we are really marching to the end of EVE.

It is already hillarious how capital ships with all the skills and techniques needed to manage are easly countered by smaller weak vessels, and it is still not good enough ?

There was a time when the sight of a capital ship were reason for scaring the roaches. Today, capital ships are marching to be "just one more thing".

"How is someone supposed to hold down a supercarrier with a heavy interdictor ?" - Is that a serious question ?
Sooyoung snsd
EndlessRain
Naval Defence Alliance
#5 - 2014-06-02 15:13:42 UTC
Olivia Berett wrote:
I always thought that a big capital ship were supposed to balance to a group of smaller ships. If we have pricy capital ships that take tons of stuff to make and tons of work to operate and maneuver as weak as a couple of small ships, then we are really marching to the end of EVE.

It is already hillarious how capital ships with all the skills and techniques needed to manage are easly countered by smaller weak vessels, and it is still not good enough ?

There was a time when the sight of a capital ship were reason for scaring the roaches. Today, capital ships are marching to be "just one more thing".

"How is someone supposed to hold down a supercarrier with a heavy interdictor ?" - Is that a serious question ?


capital ships needs support fleets. think of it like a swarm. a big giant creature will not have the agility or speed to take out the smaller agile creatures on its own. the way they are right now carriers are these giant creatures but have the agility and speed to take out the smaller ones. think about it. a flight of minmatar fighters+ omnis with tracking speed. a nyx would be able to remove a hictor easily with those. hictors are slow with their points on and they cant receive reps. so tell me, how exactly do you think a single hictor can hold a super if that super can apply significant dps to to that hictor
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#6 - 2014-06-02 17:54:38 UTC
Olivia Berett wrote:
There was a time when the sight of a capital ship were reason for scaring the roaches. Today, capital ships are marching to be "just one more thing".
Nothing in this game is "just one more thing." Every single ship has their own roles (and its own counters). Used correctly, carriers are a nightmare for all the right reasons. A triage carrier for subcap fights, for example, is very strong, but has its own counters.

The issue is fighters, drones that are meant to attack capital ships, are easily able to apply damage to cruisers. Because of this, supercarriers (something meant to chew up dreadnoughts and carriers) are able to dominate anything subcapital. Does it make sense if a battleship gun can easily track a frigate orbiting close? If the battleship guns can easily track a frigate, why would the Interceptor ship class exist?
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#7 - 2014-06-02 18:00:27 UTC
Sooyoung snsd wrote:
Olivia Berett wrote:
I always thought that a big capital ship were supposed to balance to a group of smaller ships. If we have pricy capital ships that take tons of stuff to make and tons of work to operate and maneuver as weak as a couple of small ships, then we are really marching to the end of EVE.

It is already hillarious how capital ships with all the skills and techniques needed to manage are easly countered by smaller weak vessels, and it is still not good enough ?

There was a time when the sight of a capital ship were reason for scaring the roaches. Today, capital ships are marching to be "just one more thing".

"How is someone supposed to hold down a supercarrier with a heavy interdictor ?" - Is that a serious question ?


capital ships needs support fleets. think of it like a swarm. a big giant creature will not have the agility or speed to take out the smaller agile creatures on its own. the way they are right now carriers are these giant creatures but have the agility and speed to take out the smaller ones. think about it. a flight of minmatar fighters+ omnis with tracking speed. a nyx would be able to remove a hictor easily with those. hictors are slow with their points on and they cant receive reps. so tell me, how exactly do you think a single hictor can hold a super if that super can apply significant dps to to that hictor



You fly into a swarm of 10-15 heavy fighters in a cruiser, you deserve to get mulched.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#8 - 2014-06-02 18:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
Sirinda wrote:
You fly into a swarm of 10-15 heavy fighters in a cruiser, you deserve to get mulched.
If you were the only cruiser, or one of maybe five, then yeah, sure. But something ridiculous like five heavy interdictors trying to hold down that supercarrier, you'll get mulched before the dreadnought fleet (or hell, even other supercarriers) can kill it.

With this how it is, you'll probably never see another Battle of B-R5RB. The supercarriers would just refit off of one another, blap the tackle and everyone'll jump out.
Aria Jimbojohnson
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-06-03 03:26:39 UTC
Glad they're just releasing everything in less than a day, balance issues be damned. ::CCP::
RcTamiya Leontis
Magister Mortalis.
#10 - 2014-06-03 10:53:02 UTC
As far as i know its difficult to kill a HIC in 7.5 seconds .... even with a LOT of dps .... but sill for 00/wspace we got inerdictors for suidcide bubbling, for low sec .. well ...bring more hics and less blappdreads* ? O: ( oh my god i suggested to adapt ! )



* With more HICs on grid hostile dps will be split and becomes ineffective in killing one before its getting repped, however beeing under fire from 100+ Carriers/Supers is something a hic wouldn't surrive before reps land i think, but that's what your subcaps are for -> killing fighters/fighterombers
BiggestT
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-06-03 14:40:50 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Noticed this on the test server, since fighters now count as drones, for the purposes of Drone Damage Amps and Omnidirectional Tracking Links, you can fit up a carrier to reliably kill cruisers with no trouble. Overheated, you can get tracking on fighters comparable to unbonused Ogres. A few times, I've been slaughtered in a Sacrilege by a single Thanatos with only two or three volleys from their Einherjs'.

Considering how dreadnoughts and other capitals have been balanced before, I think this is a mistake. How is someone supposed to hold down a supercarrier with a heavy interdictor, for example?


Fighters and Fighter Bombers are now very expensive. Shoot them first with your support fleet to save your dictors. If you don't have a support fleet then you don't really deserve the kill imo. That will at least help you in the smaller engagements.

I do agree that HICS could benefit from a sig radius decrease though, as larger engagements will be a b!tch now for HICS.
Olivia Berett
Advanced Weapon Supplement League
Fraternity.
#12 - 2014-06-04 11:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Olivia Berett
Exactly what I said. You ventrue a lone capital into 10 cruisers, ur done. That is RIGHT.

What is wrong is a capital ship being stopped by ONE SHIP. I also agree that should be possible for a lone ship to EVADE a capital due to agility and speed, maybe a faceoff of the smaller capital and the bigger battleship could be somehow balanced, but it is out of any logic that one of the biggest capital ships can be stopped by one single cruiser of any sort.

What is suggested there is that balancing is made with the idea that any ship must be able to face any other ship, and that is crap. That is the kind of crap the wrecks all MMOs, and is sure starting to get to EVE.

If something is hard to get, hard to build, hard to be able to use, that also must be put into consideration.

What I see a lot in the test server is that u dont really need tens of small ships to wreck a capital. And the number needed is really getting lower and lower each expansion.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#13 - 2014-06-04 14:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
Olivia Berett wrote:
Exactly what I said. You ventrue a lone capital into 10 cruisers, ur done. That is RIGHT.
Except now, 10 cruisers don't kill so much as a Nidhoggur, unless he's repair-fit. If a buffer-fit Sacrilege is alpha'd through armor by weapons that shouldn't be able to track it, how do you figure 10 cruisers will do?

Olivia Berett wrote:
What is wrong is a capital ship being stopped by ONE SHIP

By no means should a capital be able to be stopped by ONE ship. A dreadnought has a decent enough chance of killing a battleship, and if not can survive long enough against any subcap to call in backup (if not, he's a complete moron and should lose the ship). A carrier shouldn't be killed by really small groups of subcaps; they can kill things with different kinds of drones. A supercarrier really can't be killed by a gang of subcapitals anyway; it takes so long that they should be able to call backup to help fight them off if nothing else. A capital should NOT be stopped by one ship (unless it's a titan, a dedicated capital and supercapital killer). The ship I've mentioned is as being broken is the heavy interdictor, whose entire role is to keep a supercapital from jumping. It can no longer keep a supercapital from jumping, because it dies too easily to weapons that are meant to kill dreadnoughts and carriers.

Olivia Berett wrote:
What is suggested there is that balancing is made with the idea that any ship must be able to face any other ship, and that is crap. That is the kind of crap the wrecks all MMOs, and is sure starting to get to EVE.

I never said any ship should be able to face off against any other ship. A Zealot should never be able to brawl with a Deimos, a battleship shouldn't be able to tackle like a Stiletto, an Apocalypse should never be able to tank like a Hyperion. Every single ship has their own roles, their own strengths and their own counters. This is why Eve is such a great MMO and more like Starcraft than World of Warcraft (World of Warcraft is a game where, by the way, you buy the most expensive stuff and nobody can kill you. Like buying a supercapital and being able to kill absolutely everything and having no counters). One of the problems is now supercarriers can only be lost now if their pilots are complete idiots because the only ship that can keep a supercapital from jumping, the heavy interdictor (normal interdictors and their bubbles are killed by smartbombs), is very easily killed by a supercarrier's fighters; fighters that are intended to attack other capitals and as CCP has said before shouldn't be able to track subcapitals. The other problem is that CCP has said multiple times that while subcapitals shouldn't easily kill capitals and supers, capitals and supers shouldn't be able to wholesale squash subcapitals either. That's why dreadnoughts don't have great tracking, that's why Titans can't doomsday subcapitals, that's why carriers can use drones other than fighters. Capitals and subcapitals need support fleets.

While you say "the idea that any ship must be able to face any other ship is crap," you're also basically saying that every capital should be able to face any number of subcapitals, which is also crap.

Quote:
What I see a lot in the test server is that u dont really need tens of small ships to wreck a capital. And the number needed is really getting lower and lower each expansion.
The only times my group has been able to kill carriers on the test server is when we've dropped at least one dreadnought on them. And even then they were idiots who should've been able to refit off of one another, neut out or kill the ships pointing them and warp off (or at least tank the single dreadnought). Your argument suggests that no matter how badly a supercapital pilot plays and even if he gets caught in a really bad situation, he shouldn't be punished for that because he should be able to kill everything there anyway.
Athraws
Rising Thunder
#14 - 2014-06-04 15:27:16 UTC
Olivia Berett wrote:
What is wrong is a capital ship being stopped by ONE SHIP. I also agree that should be possible for a lone ship to EVADE a capital due to agility and speed, maybe a faceoff of the smaller capital and the bigger battleship could be somehow balanced, but it is out of any logic that one of the biggest capital ships can be stopped by one single cruiser of any sort.


You are aware that the only way to hold supercapitals somewhere and keep them from warping/jumping is via an interdictor (killed by SB's) or a Hictor? Am I to read your statement as saying supercapitals should never be able to be held down at all? Or that your recommendation is to move the Hictors super-tackling ability to a larger, BS class hull, which just happens to be even EASIER for a super to kill than the current Hictor?

I'm fully aware you can 'bump' a super to keep it from warping, or neut it to prevent jumping, but those mechanisms don't apply on a larger scale, not to mention the question of what you'd be bumping/neuting it with, since small ships get SB's off and larger ships get slaughtered by potentially 5000+ dps of fighters from a SINGLE supercarrier.

By crippling the ability for Hictors to survive amidst supers, what's to keep a fleet of supers from just jumping out when heavier opposition arrives?
JetCord
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-06-05 01:35:21 UTC
are they gonna release the low slot omnidirectional tracking enhancer? will this make the tracking on fighters and fighter bomber more OP or the fighter/FB scan res gonna be nerf again?

@CCP Fozzie pls think of the implication before releasing the low slot omni enhancer
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#16 - 2014-06-05 14:03:10 UTC
JetCord wrote:
are they gonna release the low slot omnidirectional tracking enhancer?
They're already released.
Romana Erebus
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#17 - 2014-06-05 14:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Romana Erebus
Dude.......no one on tq is going to run around with a carrier pure dps tracking fit like that. Unless they like getting blown up . But a dps/tracking fit will pop frigates in one shot. Shocked Alotta tears here ....alotta tears ....Eally lets put this into perspective.......a carrier carrying fighters......the size of a frigate should be able to deploy 10-15 and haze your cruisers face off. They are FIGHTERS and several are attacking your cruiser which is larger than they are. Common sense people

btw the odds of you running into a super fit with just fighters and all tracking dps is slim to none and slim just left the building.

regular dictors are better at tackling supers anyway..Im more concerned with the fact an ibis can bump a Nyx and it cant warp..we should be talking about bump mechanics......a cruiser doing 4km/sec should just explode slamming into a Nyx at that speed. Thats an exploit tbh one CCP apparently is unwilling or unable to fix
Athraws
Rising Thunder
#18 - 2014-06-05 15:27:51 UTC
Romana Erebus wrote:
Dude.......no one on tq is going to run around with a carrier pure dps tracking fit like that. Unless they like getting blown up . But a dps/tracking fit will pop frigates in one shot. Shocked
...
btw the odds of you running into a super fit with just fighters and all tracking dps is slim to none and slim just left the building.


What this guy said. I mean, its not like they can refit off each other when they're close together or anything.
hellswindstaff
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#19 - 2014-06-05 15:57:48 UTC
Athraws wrote:
Romana Erebus wrote:
Dude.......no one on tq is going to run around with a carrier pure dps tracking fit like that. Unless they like getting blown up . But a dps/tracking fit will pop frigates in one shot. Shocked
...
btw the odds of you running into a super fit with just fighters and all tracking dps is slim to none and slim just left the building.


What this guy said. I mean, its not like they can refit off each other when they're close together or anything.


If there's more than one and you dont have the ability to tackle them (AHEM light Dictor) you should probably stfu and warp out. Much angry butthurt over something you likely will never tackle anyway
Athraws
Rising Thunder
#20 - 2014-06-05 16:48:46 UTC
hellswindstaff wrote:

If there's more than one and you dont have the ability to tackle them (AHEM light Dictor) you should probably stfu and warp out. Much angry butthurt over something you likely will never tackle anyway


Because light dictors and their bubbles are totally not removed by smartbombs. Totally not. Besides, Romana, I'm not concerned over the possibility of being killed by legions of subcap-annihilating fighters myself, but over what this will do to the meta.

A change like this simply encourages even MORE people to get into supers and discourages the use of anything else in fights of importance, in addition to lowering the risk of using supers in combat.

Supercarriers were INTENDED to be powerful platforms against other capitals and, to some extent, battleships, and were expected to have to rely on support fleets for tackle (ie dictors/hictors) or escape (by killing tackle). If CCP desired them to have the ability to track and annihilate cruisers by themselves, they would never have removed their ability to deploy 'normal' drones.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ship-balancing/

I suggest you read this.
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