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Worm, GIla and Rattlesnake pilots
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sir bakeraxes QUACK
FAIL Clan
#21 - 2014-06-05 21:10:48 UTC
I understand enough to know that before the patch players used these ships in pvp and pve a lot different then they are going to now the worm for instance wasen`t used with combat drones it was used with ecm or webbing or even warpscraming drones that`s gone. the gila I can`t say on the pvp part never seen it used in pvp in pve though I do know players liked to carry all different classes of drone from lights to sentry also gone. and the rattlesnake hahaha if anyone is using that in pvp please post there killmail I bet its a good laugh. I do understand trying to make these ships more class specific but giving absurd bonuses and limiting the number of drones at the same time isn`t a good way to expand there use.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-06-05 22:58:21 UTC
sir bakeraxes QUACK wrote:
I understand enough to know that before the patch players used these ships in pvp and pve a lot different then they are going to now the worm for instance wasen`t used with combat drones it was used with ecm or webbing or even warpscraming drones that`s gone. the gila I can`t say on the pvp part never seen it used in pvp in pve though I do know players liked to carry all different classes of drone from lights to sentry also gone. and the rattlesnake hahaha if anyone is using that in pvp please post there killmail I bet its a good laugh. I do understand trying to make these ships more class specific but giving absurd bonuses and limiting the number of drones at the same time isn`t a good way to expand there use.


hmm i kind of disagree with u, also i havent flown rattle for pvp or will. It is a brick tank with massive amount of damage potential if in a fleet which covers her flaws i think its very useable
Shari Evan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-06-06 00:45:45 UTC
sir bakeraxes QUACK wrote:
I understand enough to know that before the patch players used these ships in pvp and pve a lot different then they are going to now the worm for instance wasen`t used with combat drones it was used with ecm or webbing or even warpscraming drones that`s gone. the gila I can`t say on the pvp part never seen it used in pvp in pve though I do know players liked to carry all different classes of drone from lights to sentry also gone. and the rattlesnake hahaha if anyone is using that in pvp please post there killmail I bet its a good laugh. I do understand trying to make these ships more class specific but giving absurd bonuses and limiting the number of drones at the same time isn`t a good way to expand there use.


The Gila will be the cookie-cutter ship against every kitchensink / roaming fleet. Just a little prophecy of mine. The price increase shows that alot of people are interested in the Gila/Rattle. And yes, the Rattle might be less useful in PvP, but i can see its usage.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#24 - 2014-06-06 21:01:22 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
JrLUK wrote:
sir bakeraxes QUACK wrote:
you might as well sell them before the bottom falls out on all gurista ships. they are junk now bandwith that low there`s no point in flying them anymore. I can field 5 lights with every navy ship I have the only pirate ship that can is the rattlesnake and it`s not worth it.


I don't understand why everyone is whining. 1400dps on my Rattlesnake right now. with my Gecko doing more damage than some of my fully fit ships. The Gila has a 500% drone bonus for christs sake.

1400 paper dps.

When you account for the lost damage due to lost missile volleys (since their speed got reduced, more likely to waste volleys) and gecko travel time, I suspect that 1400 number drops a lot lower.

If you're shooting at something that isn't tackled, it's likely not going to take too much damage anyways, and even if it is the person will just warp off. If you're in tackle range, you don't give a **** about missile velocity or "wasted volleys" because the travel time is pretty well non-existent at web/scram range.

And as for your Gecko travel time complaint, you can always use Sentries. You still get 7.5 effective Sentries just like before patch. You get the added benefit of being able to assign more of them too, and they volley for more and are harder to remove. Add some RHML's, HML's, or even RLML's (missile damage bonus, use whatever you want) and you can shred enemy tackle, Cruisers, anything you want to fit to kill. Who even needs a flight of 5 lights if you have 5 bonused RLML's?
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#25 - 2014-06-07 00:36:05 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

If you're shooting at something that isn't tackled, it's likely not going to take too much damage anyways, and even if it is the person will just warp off. If you're in tackle range, you don't give a **** about missile velocity or "wasted volleys" because the travel time is pretty well non-existent at web/scram range.

Funny, I don't remember having to ever tackle NPCs to prevent them from running off.

Quote:

And as for your Gecko travel time complaint, you can always use Sentries. You still get 7.5 effective Sentries just like before patch. You get the added benefit of being able to assign more of them too, and they volley for more and are harder to remove. Add some RHML's, HML's, or even RLML's (missile damage bonus, use whatever you want) and you can shred enemy tackle, Cruisers, anything you want to fit to kill. Who even needs a flight of 5 lights if you have 5 bonused RLML's?

I am a little surprised that people aren't realizing that you can have 2.5x as much damage assisted to a single person when using Rattlesnakes...or five times as much when using Geckos.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#26 - 2014-06-07 01:33:38 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

If you're shooting at something that isn't tackled, it's likely not going to take too much damage anyways, and even if it is the person will just warp off. If you're in tackle range, you don't give a **** about missile velocity or "wasted volleys" because the travel time is pretty well non-existent at web/scram range.

Funny, I don't remember having to ever tackle NPCs to prevent them from running off.

Funny, I don't remember PvE being a major factor in balance discussion.

I mean, sure, it's important that you don't get too much money too quickly from farming PvE. But really the main concern is balance in PvP application.
Chris Winter wrote:

Quote:

And as for your Gecko travel time complaint, you can always use Sentries. You still get 7.5 effective Sentries just like before patch. You get the added benefit of being able to assign more of them too, and they volley for more and are harder to remove. Add some RHML's, HML's, or even RLML's (missile damage bonus, use whatever you want) and you can shred enemy tackle, Cruisers, anything you want to fit to kill. Who even needs a flight of 5 lights if you have 5 bonused RLML's?

I am a little surprised that people aren't realizing that you can have 2.5x as much damage assisted to a single person when using Rattlesnakes...or five times as much when using Geckos.

I really do like this. The assist fleets will be ridiculous. One Gecko counting as close to three in assists or two Sentries counting as 7.5 (5 compared to bonused boats) mean that assist doctrines are still pretty strong. You can assign a whole wing to someone again, and the damage will be immense. And if they intend to smartbomb your Gecko fleet away, it'll still take some (a little more than it used to) time to do so thanks to Geckos having ~26k EHP in a RS.
Walley Wallington
Ordo Templis Nuit
#27 - 2014-06-09 18:41:06 UTC
all I can say is.. for the past year I had been a dedicated rattlesnake pilot.
I loved the long range of the missiles, I used to have 166km range!
used to be able to carry a full compliment of drones of my choosing.
the day I completed long range targeting V to get my locking range further than my missiles, I find my missile range is now reduced to 111km? which is under my drone control range and usually beyond where my MJD takes me..
in other words, the style of game play I have been training for many months is gone now. Honestly, I have barely played more than a few mins since then, it felt like it pulled the rug out from under me and I haven't regained the will to bother yet.
my RS DPS came up so slightly its not even worth mentioning. I fail to see how others seem to comment that it was a positive thong in any way.
I think the only players that see this as a good rebalance are those who do not fly a rattler.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#28 - 2014-06-09 21:01:48 UTC
Walley Wallington wrote:
all I can say is.. for the past year I had been a dedicated rattlesnake pilot.
I loved the long range of the missiles, I used to have 166km range!
used to be able to carry a full compliment of drones of my choosing.
the day I completed long range targeting V to get my locking range further than my missiles, I find my missile range is now reduced to 111km? which is under my drone control range and usually beyond where my MJD takes me..
in other words, the style of game play I have been training for many months is gone now. Honestly, I have barely played more than a few mins since then, it felt like it pulled the rug out from under me and I haven't regained the will to bother yet.
my RS DPS came up so slightly its not even worth mentioning. I fail to see how others seem to comment that it was a positive thong in any way.
I think the only players that see this as a good rebalance are those who do not fly a rattler.



So you have to be running at least 3 DLA's to get more than 111km drone range. Fun fact: if you remove two of them for launchers you'll get a lot more than a "small DPS increase". And if you stop trying to use Wardens or Bouncers or whatever you're trying to use to get more than 100km drone range, you'll get an even larger DPS increase. More than likely to the point that you can completely ignore trying to MJD away. Hell, you can use Heavies/a Gecko and get likely double your current DPS, allowing you to melt rats so fast that you don't have to worry about tanking them for more than a couple minutes. Which, coincidentally, is about as long as you can sustain an X-L SB for which is likely enough to tank the rats.

Basically what I'm saying is that you could probably finish your missions in about half the time with about the same hassle if you stopped trying to sit at range plinking enemies to death and moved in and burned them.

I'll agree that this is a shift from your chosen style of gameplay, but if you ask me it's for the better because of how much more quickly you'll be making money.

So good changes.
I think the only players that see this as a bad rebalance are those who are incapable of adapting to change.
Gefen Orion
Icebox Industries
#29 - 2014-06-10 02:45:40 UTC
The Gurista ships are no longer poor imitations of the Gallente drone ships. They have their own niche now. Worms and Gilas have become solid brawlers (not to mention the new skin of the Gila rocks!) for pvp. The GIla does a little bit less damage than an ishtar (and the ishtar does have better application overall), but with creative thinking and fitting, you would be surprise with the new Gila capabilities.

The RS is still pretty much the same if you'd ask me. Sure, there's the little buff on the damage side (about 200 to 300 additional paper dps - which it sorely needed to put it on par with other pirate hulls), same tank, you can field 2 ogres or 2 sentries on steroids (same damage output as before). You still have the option of fielding 5 lights (albeit unbonused ones - but they can still do the job, but seriously, sentries can shred beelining lights 15km and beyond). The RS is still the same. A mid-range tanky brawler that can shred anything from 0 - 100km. Beyond 100km, I would point you to a dominix and the raven (along with the upper tier ravens).



Elusive Panda
Void Covenant
The Initiative.
#30 - 2014-06-10 17:16:14 UTC
Can you please all stop praising how good and mighty the new guristas ships are?
The prices in Jita are hurting my eyes (and wallet)

With that said:

Yeah they're uhm... really bad.. because hm.. bandwidth, yeah, and stuff, stop buying them.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-06-10 18:54:31 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
And if you stop trying to use Wardens or Bouncers or whatever you're trying to use to get more than 100km drone range, you'll get an even larger DPS increase.


Yea, that would be probably not so good, rattle is not domi, gardes are still 42+34 with 3x omni, so why not sacrifice the ~50 dps to have 100km range with just one omni, eh? :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#32 - 2014-06-10 21:07:12 UTC
Yes to all, I just wish they had Augmented Sentries now. In particular, for all of those ships, CCP has finally made faction drones a semi viable option where before it was T2 or GTFO.

But for the GIla, using Augmented Hammerheads is quite simply obscene, and far more than worth the price.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-06-10 21:19:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yes to all, I just wish they had Augmented Sentries now. In particular, for all of those ships, CCP has finally made faction drones a semi viable option where before it was T2 or GTFO.

But for the GIla, using Augmented Hammerheads is quite simply obscene, and far more than worth the price.



I dont think augmented sentries will happen, i mean, they had to actually nerf gardes so that they have the same dps with navy ddas as they had before with dda II, 950+ dps augmented gardes seem like a fantasy.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#34 - 2014-06-10 21:21:12 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yes to all, I just wish they had Augmented Sentries now. In particular, for all of those ships, CCP has finally made faction drones a semi viable option where before it was T2 or GTFO.

But for the GIla, using Augmented Hammerheads is quite simply obscene, and far more than worth the price.



I dont think augmented sentries will happen, i mean, they had to actually nerf gardes so that they have the same dps with navy ddas as they had before with dda II, 950+ dps augmented gardes seem like a fantasy.


Hence why I used the word "wish", I'm afraid... but I do agree, it's never going to happen. It's just nice to actually have options now, I must say.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#35 - 2014-06-11 20:28:31 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
And if you stop trying to use Wardens or Bouncers or whatever you're trying to use to get more than 100km drone range, you'll get an even larger DPS increase.


Yea, that would be probably not so good, rattle is not domi, gardes are still 42+34 with 3x omni, so why not sacrifice the ~50 dps to have 100km range with just one omni, eh? :)

In case you couldn't read, pretty much everything I said was "stop gimping your damage in an attempt to snipe from >110km and move in closer so you can apply real damage".

Seriously, he must be throwing away 2 launchers just to get drone range above 110km because he's complaining that 111km missile range isn't enough for him so that's gimped his damage. He's sitting over 110km so he's using weaker sentries. In all honesty he could double his DPS and halve his mission times if he bothered move in to even 50km. In addition, he wouldn't even have to have a great tank because he can blap things off field so quickly that incoming DPS is getting rapidly reduced.

Sure, it's a big shift in playstyle. But it'll greatly improve his ISK/hour while also making a better use of the new Rattlesnake.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2014-06-11 20:38:31 UTC
sir bakeraxes QUACK wrote:
warpscraming drones


Say what?

I didnt think those ever got released
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-06-12 13:20:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Goldensaver wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
And if you stop trying to use Wardens or Bouncers or whatever you're trying to use to get more than 100km drone range, you'll get an even larger DPS increase.


Yea, that would be probably not so good, rattle is not domi, gardes are still 42+34 with 3x omni, so why not sacrifice the ~50 dps to have 100km range with just one omni, eh? :)

In case you couldn't read, pretty much everything I said was "stop gimping your damage in an attempt to snipe from >110km and move in closer so you can apply real damage".

Seriously, he must be throwing away 2 launchers just to get drone range above 110km because he's complaining that 111km missile range isn't enough for him so that's gimped his damage. He's sitting over 110km so he's using weaker sentries. In all honesty he could double his DPS and halve his mission times if he bothered move in to even 50km. In addition, he wouldn't even have to have a great tank because he can blap things off field so quickly that incoming DPS is getting rapidly reduced.

Sure, it's a big shift in playstyle. But it'll greatly improve his ISK/hour while also making a better use of the new Rattlesnake.


That is not what i have quoted, i dont care much about your assumptions how many dlas he has (we have also rigs for that, did you know?), you have said drop the wardens and bouncers and i replied to that.

As for sentry damage, dont be overly melodramatic, gardes do ~740dps, curators ~700, bouncers ~660, wardens ~610 with 3x navy dda.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#38 - 2014-06-12 19:46:06 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
And if you stop trying to use Wardens or Bouncers or whatever you're trying to use to get more than 100km drone range, you'll get an even larger DPS increase.


Yea, that would be probably not so good, rattle is not domi, gardes are still 42+34 with 3x omni, so why not sacrifice the ~50 dps to have 100km range with just one omni, eh? :)

In case you couldn't read, pretty much everything I said was "stop gimping your damage in an attempt to snipe from >110km and move in closer so you can apply real damage".

Seriously, he must be throwing away 2 launchers just to get drone range above 110km because he's complaining that 111km missile range isn't enough for him so that's gimped his damage. He's sitting over 110km so he's using weaker sentries. In all honesty he could double his DPS and halve his mission times if he bothered move in to even 50km. In addition, he wouldn't even have to have a great tank because he can blap things off field so quickly that incoming DPS is getting rapidly reduced.

Sure, it's a big shift in playstyle. But it'll greatly improve his ISK/hour while also making a better use of the new Rattlesnake.


That is not what i have quoted, i dont care much about your assumptions how many dlas he has (we have also rigs for that, did you know?), you have said drop the wardens and bouncers and i replied to that.

As for sentry damage, dont be overly melodramatic, gardes do ~740dps, curators ~700, bouncers ~660, wardens ~610 with 3x navy dda.


And Heavies will do even more with a Gecko getting 820 DPS, then add in the extra damage of 5 bonused launchers and you get something like 1400 DPS as opposed to the Wardens + 4 unbonused launchers and being generous and saying 1000 DPS with reduced application. Even if it isn't double the DPS it does melt things faster, which will also reduce the amount of repairing going on by the rats. Five Inferno Fury Cruises w/ 2 CN BCU's and 1 Gecko w/ 4 DDA II's gets 1549 DPS. Even if you insist on using Sentries, you can use Gardes which change the DPS number to 1477. Battleships will simply cease to exist, and with 2 Rigors and a Flare you can do pretty damn good damage to frigates by switching to Precisions.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-06-15 22:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Goldensaver wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
And if you stop trying to use Wardens or Bouncers or whatever you're trying to use to get more than 100km drone range, you'll get an even larger DPS increase.


Yea, that would be probably not so good, rattle is not domi, gardes are still 42+34 with 3x omni, so why not sacrifice the ~50 dps to have 100km range with just one omni, eh? :)

In case you couldn't read, pretty much everything I said was "stop gimping your damage in an attempt to snipe from >110km and move in closer so you can apply real damage".

Seriously, he must be throwing away 2 launchers just to get drone range above 110km because he's complaining that 111km missile range isn't enough for him so that's gimped his damage. He's sitting over 110km so he's using weaker sentries. In all honesty he could double his DPS and halve his mission times if he bothered move in to even 50km. In addition, he wouldn't even have to have a great tank because he can blap things off field so quickly that incoming DPS is getting rapidly reduced.

Sure, it's a big shift in playstyle. But it'll greatly improve his ISK/hour while also making a better use of the new Rattlesnake.


That is not what i have quoted, i dont care much about your assumptions how many dlas he has (we have also rigs for that, did you know?), you have said drop the wardens and bouncers and i replied to that.

As for sentry damage, dont be overly melodramatic, gardes do ~740dps, curators ~700, bouncers ~660, wardens ~610 with 3x navy dda.


And Heavies will do even more with a Gecko getting 820 DPS, then add in the extra damage of 5 bonused launchers and you get something like 1400 DPS as opposed to the Wardens + 4 unbonused launchers and being generous and saying 1000 DPS with reduced application. Even if it isn't double the DPS it does melt things faster, which will also reduce the amount of repairing going on by the rats. Five Inferno Fury Cruises w/ 2 CN BCU's and 1 Gecko w/ 4 DDA II's gets 1549 DPS. Even if you insist on using Sentries, you can use Gardes which change the DPS number to 1477. Battleships will simply cease to exist, and with 2 Rigors and a Flare you can do pretty damn good damage to frigates by switching to Precisions.


Whether they melt is besides the point, at which range they melt is the difference, you can have ~1300-1500 dps at ~100km (with 700-850 dps out to 148-111km) or ~1500 at 50km with things chasing around your heavies with a better tank, dont discard long range sentries just because you can imagine only dropping a launcher for a dla.
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