Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Ships of the same class should have to be hard counters to each other.

I don't think that istars outperform everything in their class as the Ishtar is the only Drone hac. Most of the istar I see that take out frigs and dessies with ease warp to a tactical 80km off and drop sentry drones and snipe. Giving the tracking bonus of ishtars and the unlikelihood of anyone getting to them fast enough to get a tackle before the Ishtar pops someone, ishtars can fit as many tracking mods and drone damage mods as they can without stacking penalties being to high. Almost any sniping ship can pop something from range, even if its moving fast.

I think ishtars and domis sell a lot because you can run through missions fast. When something gets close tthey just Microjump or burn off.

Maybe the comparison is off, but probably because I'm not all that familiar with WOW, other than it is a broadly popular fantasy game and berserkers are a type of character that are often found in fantasy games.

But more to the point, DPS doesn't just happen. DPS is the cornerstone of the Gallente line. And the point I was making is that the Gallente line is more or less balanced with other races in most regards, but that balance breaks down to a degree when drones (and especially sentry drones) come into the equation. People have argued that Gallente ships are unbalanced, and I'm simply saying that the focus should be put on a specific system that I see as causing the problem. I'm not arguing that my view is the most enlightened or correct, I'm offering my viewpoint on a forum where it can be discussed, debated, debunked, expanded upon, or accepted in the grand "marketplace of ideas".

That now reiterated, would you like to offer your counterpoint on my opinion? Perhaps on how such a nerf would effect incursions, wormhole exploration, PvP, missions, and the general EvE experience as you have lived it? I've put forth an idea and welcome open and honest discussion about it.

Yep. None of this mentions blasters or rails, which can be just as broken in some situations. Drones are just in the spotlight now because of all of the big changes coming their way. Drones initially helped fill a gap in Gallente's ability to apply DPS effectively at mid range. Blasters are extremely close range with roughly 50% more tracking than pulse lasers and 25% more than autocannons, but since Gallente are so slow after you stick some plates on them and they don't get any bonuses to web efficacy or range, the most effective method of keeping a target close to you, blasters can be difficult to apply effectively. In other words, that big DPS number doesn't mean jack, because half the time you don't apply 100% of it. Use a scram to shut off their MWD and you're still slower than them when you're both webbed, and they are by default faster than you if you are both webbed with AB's and they likely have the better cap reserve. Gallente ships without drones would just be kited to their doom 100% of the time.

Rails are rails. Compare to other long range weapons. Since you typically aren't applying point on the target personally while using rails I won't drag this out but suffice it to say similar situations arise.

Blasters can be OK from a one-on-one perspective. Once you get someone in your sweet spot sometimes you can deal enough damage that they can't get away in time to save themselves. Similarly with rails, they can be OK too. Both however benefit more than most weapons systems by having ships from other factions supporting them. Only then do you start to see them get applied effectively in every situation. Drones fill that very large gap these two weapons have between where their damage is applied. DPS "happens" because people are willing to combine shield and speed tank on their Ishtars and it works surprisingly well for a ship that has neither good shields nor good speed, an unintended consequence when it came to the initial design of the ship where it was intended to sacrifice drone damage for armor tank, just like other Gallente ships do (not to say other Gallente ships don't have shield tank doctrines, but that 50% reduction to MWD sig bloom kind of helps the Ish... A lot...). The Domi was also given a way to circumvent the problem of mobility with the introduction of the MJD, which also helps quite a bit with tanking, because suddenly putting an extra 100km between you and the person shooting you tends to put a serious damper on their ability to hit you like a truck..... Neither of these ships has been rebalanced to take into account how players are working around balance issues that were either overlooked in their design or introduced through new mechanics.

There's really only two ships in the entire Gallente line that have issues related to drones. Almost all of them rely on drones to a degree at least. Where is the causal link here?

I love your post. It's well thought-out and articulates the point quite nicely. I even learned a thing or two :)

But I think there is something I'm not quite understanding. Everything you pointed out seems to agree with one of the central premises of my post, which was that the Gallente ships are generally balanced, but the Domi/Ishtar seem to be unbalanced because of the power of drones and the mobility in both the hulls and the mechanic of being able to leave your sentries behind and burn away to maintain transversal and/or distance. It seems like we are, at least in somewhat general terms, in agreement on this. You used a good example of a Domi with a MJD. I agree with your example wholeheartedly.

But the tone of your posts suggest disagreement. Which is fine, I'm open to understanding more about this game through the feedback and discussion provided here, and is also the entire point of even posting an idea to the forums in the first place. I want to learn. I just don't see where you actually disagree with me that the drones (in this situation) are a bit overpowered and perhaps a small tweak is needed there.

The discrepancy in our perspectives comes from the issue that you see the drones, specifically sentry drones, as the problem, when the Domi and the Ishtar aren't the only ships that use Sentries and the other ships that do, are balanced. Changing sentries to balance the Ishtar and Domi ruins them for any other ship that uses them and only makes the Ishtar and Domi slightly less appealing, they will still be used effectively as they are being used now, just with less blap, and it's not really their DPS that's the problem. It's how they can effectively apply DPS while making sure that other comparable ships can't apply DPS, without sacrificing their own ability to do damage. No other ships get to do this with the same amount of flexibility these two ships have, anything else you set up this way will typically take a hefty penalty in some other way, or be very niche in it's use.

I'd say there are still issues taking away sentry drone bonuses doesn't address, and that simply taking something away while leaving those issues intact only makes those ships more of a problem balance-wise, not less, whether it brings their efficacy in line, makes them even more useful or makes them completely useless. Fix the problem, not the symptom. The problem is that the hull needs to be rebalanced, the symptom is that sentry drones are more effective than CCP probably intended for those ships due to indirect effects, and directly changing the efficacy of the sentry drones as a reaction to the indirect effects does not fix the problem, only hide it until it becomes even more of a problem later.

Okay then, all fair points. I simply thought it would be a baby step that could help in the meantime while a more thorough solution is worked on. But I concede, probably not a good idea. I do, however, thank you for the discussion, and you get a +1 from me :)