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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Improve Hi Sec Wars

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#81 - 2014-05-30 18:32:53 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

I used the word "characters" on purpose. The PLAYERS may do the same thing, but as soon as you cite players, you're in "metagame" territory. Sure, the players could do the same thing. That doesn't make it sensible that the CHARACTERS (who are bound by the in-game rules, not the metagame rules) are engaging on entirely different terms.



The very act of neutral repping is pretty meta. The player of the neutral logi knows that the player of the character he is repping is at war.

It's a meta activity from the outset.


Quote:


So because there can be neutral scouts (which really lack any practical way to be forced into a corp), you think that optimal gameplay for logistics pilots means being in an NPC corp, even though that could be easily addressed? Really?



It has been addressed. It didn't used to give a suspect flag. Now it has consequences, if the defender has the wherewithal to do anything about it.

But the onus is on them, and they don't want to have to put in the effort. Hence this suggestion in the first place.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2014-05-30 18:33:07 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
I used the word "characters" on purpose. The PLAYERS may do the same thing, but as soon as you cite players, you're in "metagame" territory.

Metagame!? My God! Someone is metagaming in Eve? Quick! Report them!
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#83 - 2014-05-30 18:34:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

I used the word "characters" on purpose. The PLAYERS may do the same thing, but as soon as you cite players, you're in "metagame" territory. Sure, the players could do the same thing. That doesn't make it sensible that the CHARACTERS (who are bound by the in-game rules, not the metagame rules) are engaging on entirely different terms.



The very act of neutral repping is pretty meta. The player of the neutral logi knows that the player of the character he is repping is at war.

It's a meta activity from the outset.


Quote:


So because there can be neutral scouts (which really lack any practical way to be forced into a corp), you think that optimal gameplay for logistics pilots means being in an NPC corp, even though that could be easily addressed? Really?



It has been addressed. It didn't used to give a suspect flag. Now it has consequences, if the defender has the wherewithal to do anything about it.

But the onus is on them, and they don't want to have to put in the effort. Hence this suggestion in the first place.


I actually had a typo in there, it should have read:

So because there can be neutral scouts (which really lack any practical way to be forced into a corp), you think that it's GOOD that optimal gameplay for logistics pilots means being in an NPC corp, even though that could be easily addressed? Really?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#84 - 2014-05-30 18:34:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

So because there can be neutral scouts (which really lack any practical way to be forced into a corp), you think that it's GOOD that optimal gameplay for logistics pilots means being in an NPC corp, even though that could be easily addressed? Really?


Make interference boosting and logi only doable in a player corp?

id be down for that. Though it shouldnt apply to low sec

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#85 - 2014-05-30 18:35:14 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
I used the word "characters" on purpose. The PLAYERS may do the same thing, but as soon as you cite players, you're in "metagame" territory.

Metagame!? My God! Someone is metagaming in Eve? Quick! Report them!


I didn't say it was wrong or illegal. It was an observation that the participating characters are simply not bound by the same rules.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#86 - 2014-05-30 18:36:12 UTC
This is exactly the same argument as if I were to say "it's not fair that Red Frog hides their real haulers behind alts so I can't dec them".

Well, tough luck. That's smart gameplay for Red Frog. If you want to go after them in that way, go suicide gank them.

"But Kaarous, I'm a carebear and I think suicide ganking is wrong, that means it's not fair!"

Nope. Your choice to handcuff yourself should not reflect upon the ability of others to take that action.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-05-30 18:36:23 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

So because there can be neutral scouts (which really lack any practical way to be forced into a corp), you think that it's GOOD that optimal gameplay for logistics pilots means being in an NPC corp, even though that could be easily addressed? Really?


Make boosting and logi only doable in a player corp?

id be down for that.



As would I.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2014-05-30 18:37:34 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

So because there can be neutral scouts (which really lack any practical way to be forced into a corp), you think that it's GOOD that optimal gameplay for logistics pilots means being in an NPC corp, even though that could be easily addressed? Really?


Make boosting and logi only doable in a player corp?

id be down for that.


More reasons for people to leave NPC corps are always good. (I admit the hypocrisy of using a NPC forum alt on that.Big smile ) +1 on that.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#89 - 2014-05-30 18:39:07 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

I actually had a typo in there, it should have read:

So because there can be neutral scouts (which really lack any practical way to be forced into a corp), you think that it's GOOD that optimal gameplay for logistics pilots means being in an NPC corp, even though that could be easily addressed? Really?


I think that's the reality of the situation.

If it were up to me, NPC corps' immunity to wars would not exist, period. That'd solve the problem nicely. A lot of problems, in fact.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-05-30 18:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This is exactly the same argument as if I were to say "it's not fair that Red Frog hides their real haulers behind alts so I can't dec them".




If there were a conceivable way to prevent that, I'd be fine with that too.

With that said, it's a false analogy and intellectually dishonest.

On the one hand there's a combat activity with a structured ruleset, and there's a suggestion of a small change to that ruleset.

On the other hand, there's a non-combat activity that lacks any of those structured rules, and your argument is that the first shouldn't be changed because of the second, even though they don't really have any overlap on the type of gameplay they really affect.

Here, we'll try this:

Explain why it's INHERENTLY GOOD that the OPTIMAL GAMEPLAY for logistics pilots is to be in an NPC corp. Explain how it is inherently better than having players in player corporations.

Do this without qualifying it via a "two wrongs = right" argument referencing a similar mechanic.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#91 - 2014-05-30 18:45:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This is exactly the same argument as if I were to say "it's not fair that Red Frog hides their real haulers behind alts so I can't dec them".

Well, tough luck. That's smart gameplay for Red Frog. If you want to go after them in that way, go suicide gank them.

"But Kaarous, I'm a carebear and I think suicide ganking is wrong, that means it's not fair!"

Nope. Your choice to handcuff yourself should not reflect upon the ability of others to take that action.


So because there is a game mechanic we can not fix (forcing non-combat pilots into corps), we should leave the rest of the game broken?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#92 - 2014-05-30 18:46:58 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

If there were a conceivable way to prevent that, I'd be fine with that too.


Make NPC corps incapable of trading in contracts...just saying. red frog would hate me for it, but its there.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#93 - 2014-05-30 18:48:04 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

If there were a conceivable way to prevent that, I'd be fine with that too.

With that said, it's a false analogy and intellectually dishonest.


It's actually not, is the fun part. The OP even states at one point that not being able to kill their logi or their POS as part of the war was the problem.


Quote:

Explain why it's INHERENTLY GOOD that the OPTIMAL GAMEPLAY for logistics pilots is to be in an NPC corp. Explain how it is inherently better than having players in player corporations.

Do this without qualifying it via a "two wrongs = right" argument referencing a similar mechanic.


No. I am not going to answer a logical fallacy.

It doesn't have to be the best possible way for it to work, to be the reality of the situation. Do I want alliance bookmarks? Yes. Are they necessary? Yes. Are they long overdue? Hell yes.

Are they feasible, and possible? Nope.

Is NPC corps being immune to most PvP a bullshit mechanic? Yes. Do I want it to go away? Yep.

Is it going to go away? I highly doubt it.

Until then, be a good EVE player and make use of the mechanics as they are given. Whining is for carebears.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#94 - 2014-05-30 18:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:

So because there is a game mechanic we can not fix (forcing non-combat pilots into corps), we should leave the rest of the game broken?


we choose the least broken outcome. bearing in mind, logi during a war isnt actually broken. its very much intended.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-05-30 18:49:33 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
I didn't say it was wrong or illegal. It was an observation that the participating characters are simply not bound by the same rules.

They are exactly bound by the same rules.

If either character is in a corporation, they can be war decced.

If either character is in a logi, they can rep a neutral pilot without getting CONCORDed.

If either character is in a logi and reps a neutral in a war decced corp, that logi becomes a valid target.

What rules, exactly, do these alt characters to get break?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-05-30 18:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


No. I am not going to answer a logical fallacy.



What's fallacious is, "Well... we can't fix every damn thing, so **** it, it's fine." The existence of NPC haulers has no bearing on the viability or value of forcing logi in-corp, but you keep referencing it as if it's even remotely relevant.

It's not.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2014-05-30 18:51:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Whining is for carebears.

Hey! Stop being mean to us carebears, or I'm telling CCP and they'll nerf you!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#98 - 2014-05-30 18:52:44 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


No. I am not going to answer a logical fallacy.



What's fallacious is, "Well... we can't fix every damn thing, so **** it, it's fine." The existence of NPC haulers has no bearing on the viability or value in forcing logi in-corp.


Actually, it does.

You were talking about it being wrong that the optimal way to do something is by being a neutral character.

And I told you that is hardly a unique situation in the game. It's actually fairly normal.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#99 - 2014-05-30 18:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


And I told you that is hardly a unique situation in the game. It's actually fairly normal.


And to answer surrenders question, yeah it can be good for the game.

alt cyno's, scouts, RR etc are what enable the sneaky tactics that eve players love so much. Or u can remove local from every area in the game.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-05-30 18:58:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


No. I am not going to answer a logical fallacy.



What's fallacious is, "Well... we can't fix every damn thing, so **** it, it's fine." The existence of NPC haulers has no bearing on the viability or value in forcing logi in-corp.


Actually, it does.

You were talking about it being wrong that the optimal way to do something is by being a neutral character.

And I told you that is hardly a unique situation in the game. It's actually fairly normal.


Explain how the non-uniqueness impacts the viability of forcing logi, specifically, into corp.

Explain how the non-uniqueness impacts the value of forcing logi, specifically, into corp.




"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/