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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Improve Hi Sec Wars

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Velicitia
XS Tech
#21 - 2014-05-30 14:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
You should probably read up on what CCP considers "greif play"..

In case you don't get it the first several times through ...


Well aware it isn't punishable as grief play under CCP rules, but that doesn't change that those people are not after a war, but only out to grief people.


"griefing"


edit to add
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:

and then joins a battle to completely tip the balance, they become targets for a few seconds while the enemy is mobbed up. And then they dock...


1. it's a 15 minute timer [edit 2 ... well it used to be ... $deity knows if it's stayed the same]
2. points - use them
3. Station games are the bane of all sec space.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#22 - 2014-05-30 14:08:20 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
On the flipside, it's as easy to avoid wardecs as it is to start them... just food for thought.


Might as well not have corps or war decs at all in hi sec then.

Would rather see a system that added some fun to the game than just removing features.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#23 - 2014-05-30 14:10:57 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
On the flipside, it's as easy to avoid wardecs as it is to start them... just food for thought.


Might as well not have corps or war decs at all in hi sec then.

Would rather see a system that added some fun to the game than just removing features.


Now we come to the real suggestion. You just don't want anyone to be able to mess with you at all without being killed by CONCORD.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#24 - 2014-05-30 14:12:19 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
On the flipside, it's as easy to avoid wardecs as it is to start them... just food for thought.


Might as well not have corps or war decs at all in hi sec then.

Would rather see a system that added some fun to the game than just removing features.



Step one -- grab a few frigates.
Step two -- grab a bottle of Jack (or, for the more discerning pilot -- Macallan)
Step three -- get on comms (TS, Vent, Mumble, or Eve-Voice)
Step four -- look for the WTs
Step four -- engage and **** their face.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-05-30 14:15:50 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Step two -- grab a bottle of Jack (or, for the more discerning pilot -- Macallan)

real warriors begin the day fresh and early with a triple-white chocolate mini frappuchinno
Velicitia
XS Tech
#26 - 2014-05-30 14:17:18 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Step two -- grab a bottle of Jack (or, for the more discerning pilot -- Macallan)

real warriors begin the day fresh and early with a triple-white chocolate mini frappuchinno


well, yeah ... but liquor is "courage in a bottle" so ...

... also, it's always a good time when drunk-roaming.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#27 - 2014-05-30 14:35:46 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Walter Hart White wrote:
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:

How does point 1 break incursions?

Because it does? Incursions are fleets composed with pilots from many different corporations. If you can't rep neutrals, logis in incursions would not be able to either without going suspect. Which is just gank magnet or very stupid contesting where they would shoot each other logis and then die.


There is no illegal engagement there, why would anyone get concorded? The Logi has valid engagement with all targets.

The scrammer and neuter from my example would also not get concorded in this scenario.

If this context is too hard to see out of the example, I shall go make it more clear in the original post.

*EDIT* It was actually already there, have put it in bold and added extra explanation. More EDIT, fixed the quotation I had messed up.

Define valid engagement then? This has nothing to do with scrams, logis do not rep sansha ships...
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#28 - 2014-05-30 14:37:45 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

1. it's a 15 minute timer [edit 2 ... well it used to be ... $deity knows if it's stayed the same]
2. points - use them
3. Station games are the bane of all sec space.


1: They are not going to wait till the timer is run out before they dock.
2: Points go away when you die because you were engaged by ships with no legal engament.
3: Ships in war are targets when the leave the station, out of corp logis that waited out their 15 minute timer are not. And can then travel safely protected by concord.
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#29 - 2014-05-30 14:43:59 UTC
Walter Hart White wrote:

Define valid engagement then? This has nothing to do with scrams, logis do not rep sansha ships...


A valid engagement would be one where you could help your friend by using guns instead of rep if you were a combat and not a logi ship - without getting concorded.

Helping with rep should be treated no different from shooting at the opposite target.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#30 - 2014-05-30 14:52:54 UTC
In a sandbox like eve, grief decs are not illegitimate. CCP also say greif decs are not 'rampant'.
how do u know u are being griefed? how do u know they have not been hired by ur competitors? the truth is, u dnt.

as for ur ideas,

- logi interference in a war is NEVER going to become concordable. Eve is all about sneaky tactics just like this. understand that the number of members in a corp that is attacking u is not a guaranteed measurement of their force. Try to have a plan in case logi come onto the field and do extensive intel on the bad guys if u intend to fight a dec. Do u not have friends that can come in an blap suspects? do u not have friends that can provide u with logi? make some?

- There is no way to make a system for who won what war without making it either arbitrary or decided by the players. If its arbitrary its not going to work, different corps attack eachother for different reasons, its not about the isk war all the time. If players decide their own objective then naturally they will give themselves the easiest, or eachother the hardest, possible objectives to win the war and get their 100mil iskies. the idea just wont work.

i like the idea of giving defenders something to achieve to end a dec early. my own suggestion was a structure bash.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#31 - 2014-05-30 14:54:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Now we come to the real suggestion. You just don't want anyone to be able to mess with you at all without being killed by CONCORD.


Very far from, when they war dec I want to take out their costly logi ships and blow up their PoS while my corpies are striking their mining fleet.

But with the current system. all I can attack are cheap expendable ships.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#32 - 2014-05-30 14:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
right...u said in ur OP all they have is combat ships and it was a grief dec.
Quote:
Currently hi sec wars are just a bunch of griefers in a corp that only consists of PvP oriented ships and characters war deccing everything in sight that is an easy target, so they have some targets to gank. Cowardly keeping all their own logi and income out of the warring corp, making it pretty much risk free to declare the war.


Now ur saying they have plenty of soft targets.
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Now we come to the real suggestion. You just don't want anyone to be able to mess with you at all without being killed by CONCORD.


Very far from, when they war dec I want to take out their costly logi ships and blow up their PoS while my corpies are striking their mining fleet.

But with the current system. all I can attack are cheap expendable ships.


if they have a POS and mining fleets, get some friends and make their lives hell.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#33 - 2014-05-30 15:03:41 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Now we come to the real suggestion. You just don't want anyone to be able to mess with you at all without being killed by CONCORD.


Very far from, when they war dec I want to take out their costly logi ships and blow up their PoS while my corpies are striking their mining fleet.

But with the current system. all I can attack are cheap expendable ships.



Too bad. Those things aren't in the corp declaring the wardec.

If you want to take out their POS, then wardec their holding corp.

Stop insisting on being so passive, on not doing anything for yourself and still expecting to have all this dropped in your lap. Your entitlement is appalling.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#34 - 2014-05-30 15:04:11 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Walter Hart White wrote:

Define valid engagement then? This has nothing to do with scrams, logis do not rep sansha ships...


A valid engagement would be one where you could help your friend by using guns instead of rep if you were a combat and not a logi ship - without getting concorded.

Helping with rep should be treated no different from shooting at the opposite target.

But that is already in. If you rep someone with limited engagement, you get suspect so what else do you want? Insta blow logis, really?
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#35 - 2014-05-30 15:14:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Well, point one breaks incursions, and point two is meaningless. Well done OP.

Post your lossmails.


its a valid point it is completly lame that logi outside wardeccing corp can rep friends that are in a war with another corp so the logi cant be attacked by the defending group! if you cant see that`s wrong you really miss something.

this is something that can be addressed as if you rep someone involving in a war that is not a corp mate you be concorded, as far as i know people with active wardecs are not welcome in incursions anyway.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-05-30 15:23:57 UTC
[bittervet]Bah, you kids have it easy. In my day, neutral logis never went flashy for repping war targets.[/bittervet]

How about a trade: neutral logis get CONCORDed for interfering in a wardec, and all your industrial alts get flagged as WTs whenever hauling through empire? Fair's fair and all.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-05-30 15:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
While, on the whole, I would say the OP is pointless whinging (as is generally the case whenever anyone starts using the term "griefing" on the Eve O forums), I can't really disagree about neutral logi.

There's something very disingenuous about the canned, "Neutral logi go suspect!" stock response. It's technically true, but it's rarely actually a useful fact w/ regard to average gameplay situations.


Neutral logi circumvents any requirement to commit or endanger the resource in any way prior to the actual instant of engagement. Other resources become "fair targets" at undock-time, while the quirks of the engagement rules mean logi don't become fair targets until the logi is actually activated - an event that is entirely under the control of the logi pilot. This eliminates opportunity for the opposition to preempt the neutral logi: You're only permitted to react.


Given the above, much like OGB, neutral logi is a "something for nothing" situation. The objectively correct decision is to keep your logi neutral. There's no tradeoff, cost, or disadvantage for doing so, making it an obvious tactical choice, 100% of the time, which doesn't really mesh with most of the rest of the game, where decisions generally have a few items in both the "pro" and "con" columns.

That being the case, I don't really see any reason why a CONCORD response would be inappropriate. If you want to use logi in your war, you still can - you just have to actually commit the resource at undock time instead of at engagement time, and I sincerely doubt there are any credible arguments for why that would be "bad".

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#38 - 2014-05-30 15:27:19 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Now ur saying they have plenty of soft targets.



All non-attackable and protected by Concord.

Please read before replying.
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#39 - 2014-05-30 15:27:50 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
While, on the whole, I would say the OP is pointless whinging (as is generally the case whenever anyone starts using the term "griefing" on the Eve O forums), I can't really disagree about neutral logi.

There's something very disingenuous about the canned, "Neutral logi go suspect!" stock response. It's technically true, but it's rarely actually a useful fact w/ regard to average gameplay situations.


Neutral logi circumvents any requirement to commit or endanger the resource in any way prior to the actual instant of engagement. Other resources become "fair targets" at undock-time, while the quirks of the engagement rules mean logi don't become fair targets until the logi is actually activated - an event that is entirely under the control of the logi pilot. This eliminates opportunity for the opposition to preempt the neutral logi: You're only permitted to react.


Given the above, much like OGB, neutral logi is a "something for nothing" situation. The objectively correct decision is to keep your logi neutral. There's no tradeoff, cost, or disadvantage for doing so, making it an obvious tactical choice, 100% of the time, which doesn't really mesh with most of the rest of the game, where decisions generally have a few items in both the "pro" and "con" columns.

That being the case, I don't really see any reason why a CONCORD response would be inappropriate. If you want to use logi in your war, you still can - you just have to actually commit the resource at undock time instead of at engagement time, and I sincerely doubt there are any credible arguments for why that would be "bad".

Because then you basically break incursions? Someone might become war target in the fleet, bam logis concorded. Also who cares, really? If you can't handle suspect logies, bring your own. Also, what if there are logis for hire corporations?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-05-30 15:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Walter Hart White wrote:

Because then you basically break incursions? Someone might become war target in the fleet, bam logis concorded.


There's something deliciously ironic about wielding, "Because of the precious PvEs!!!!" as a shield against fixing a broken PvP mechanic. Roll

Frankly, I don't give a flying **** about the plight of incursion runners. Adding a little risk to those would be a bonus. Anyone who's going to become a war target in the fleet knew 24 hours ago exactly when they were going to become a war target. A green safety should protect the logi from Concord, so the only person in any actual danger is the war target, who is suddenly no longer a viable target for reps...

...and we already established that that guy knew it was coming, so **** him.

Quote:
Also who cares, really? If you can't handle suspect logies, bring your own. Also, what if there are logis for hire corporations?


Were you here for the nanonerf? Back when nanofleets were a big thing, one of the common (and similarly disingenuous) arguments in favor of nano was, "If it's such a big deal just bring your own nano fleet!"

The problem with that is that, one of the key identifiers of a patently broken mechanic is that the mechanic is its own counter.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/