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Improve Hi Sec Wars

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Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#261 - 2014-06-05 07:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Velenia Ankletickler
Velicitia wrote:


1. Defender logged off for the week.
2. Attacker had bad intel, and defender actually lives in W-space (so no locator agents).
3. Defender dropped corp, and left holding alt in CEO position (pretty much #1)
4. Attacker is a merc, and the job is "blockade"
5. Defender is better than the attacker thought, and doesn't lose ships.
6. Defender paid off the attacker, and it was accepted
7. Probably more stuff I'm not thinking about.


1: Usually known if you or anyone you know is invovled.
2: How can war deccing a WH corp happen, without it being because attacker has no clue and are just war deccing at random?
3: Easy to check both in and out of game, for everyone.
4: Would usually lead to 1,3 or kills if so.
5: Then there would probably be attacker losses in the war, and it wouldn't be a 0 kill war.
6: Easy to see, then there would be a surrender in the game, and not just an expire war due to bills stopping.

So, there can be wars that have a reason, but do most current hi sec wars have a reason? That isn't just to provide aggressor with random targets for a PvP roam of high sec.

I would say no. What would you say?

*EDIT* Clarified question.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#262 - 2014-06-05 09:21:10 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


1. Defender logged off for the week.
2. Attacker had bad intel, and defender actually lives in W-space (so no locator agents).
3. Defender dropped corp, and left holding alt in CEO position (pretty much #1)
4. Attacker is a merc, and the job is "blockade"
5. Defender is better than the attacker thought, and doesn't lose ships.
6. Defender paid off the attacker, and it was accepted
7. Probably more stuff I'm not thinking about.


1: Usually known if you or anyone you know is invovled.
2: How can war deccing a WH corp happen, without it being because attacker has no clue and are just war deccing at random?
3: Easy to check both in and out of game, for everyone.
4: Would usually lead to 1,3 or kills if so.
5: Then there would probably be attacker losses in the war, and it wouldn't be a 0 kill war.
6: Easy to see, then there would be a surrender in the game, and not just an expire war due to bills stopping.

So, there can be wars that have a reason, but do most current hi sec wars have a reason? That isn't just to provide aggressor with random targets for a PvP roam of high sec.

I would say no. What would you say?

*EDIT* Clarified question.


1. I don't follow your reasoning here
2. they were in k-space and mouthing off ... or maybe some "new" guys in k-space and hadn't moved in ... or they got the dec, and then moved in.
3. Never said it wasn't easy to check ...
4. Possibly, but it depends how the mercs operate.
5. or ... the attacker station tanks Blink
6. that's not the point (but yes, that is visible).


I would say yes, all hisec wars have a reason.

Even if it's as simple as "we want targets" -- that is a reason.

If your argument is "we want targets" is not a good reason, then there is always things including (but not limited to):

1. We were paid
2. You mouthed off
3. I don't like your face
4. This is "our system"

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#263 - 2014-06-05 11:12:00 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


1. Defender logged off for the week.


1: Usually known if you or anyone you know is invovled.


1. I don't follow your reasoning here

I would say yes, all hisec wars have a reason.

Even if it's as simple as "we want targets" -- that is a reason.



1: If you know anyone in either the aggressor or defender corp, you will usually know if defender docked up for the war. As long as the war has meaning (other than free targets) and attacker actually was out looking for defender, in the "free targets" case, attacker of course has no clue. So I guess I would like to correct myself and change "know anyone involved" to "know defender". And then the reasoning is that you know if defender docked up not, because you know them.

Let me try ask even more specific: Do you think it is common for a high sec war to have profit as a goal? Either a merc corp actually being paid and not just padding kill boards (although the latter can also be seen as a profit purpose, please ignore it for this part, as no wars the merc corps are actually paid for will remove the purpose of a pretty killboard), or because it is a war between 2 industrial corps fighting over resources. Just being allowed to PvP roam without the risk of entering low, or people who station camp to make pretty out of game killboards does not count as a reason or profit for this question.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#264 - 2014-06-05 11:21:37 UTC
1. OK -- but with the number of players in game (and by extension, corporations), the probability that you'll know someone in some random corp that was in a dec last week is pretty low, unless of course they're locals and you see they're not around.

Yes, hisec wars have "profit" as a goal at times. Other times, they have reasons more akin to "you were runnin' your mouth" or "you look squishy" or "POS removal".

As for "industrial corps" deccing each other ... I doubt that happens, ever. Most (all) of them are like "nah, we're just PVE-ing, and that guy mining the belts dry in our home system doesn't matter because they'll just spawn tomorrow" ... or something more along the lines of "no way, PVP is evil, and I won't engage in it at all for any reason ever".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#265 - 2014-06-05 11:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
After reading this thread...

I think a few people need to be perma decced.

I will see how soon I can get to that.

Not to mention the op has been decced by me before. All they do is stay docked. So it means they will win always according to her rules.

In the end.. this is about the OP and what she wants cleverly disguised as "we need to fix wars".

We all know wars have their issues but unless CCP finds a way to make both sides happy it is going to stay 1-dimensional and left to the players to resolve conflict under themselves. Which is the preferred way.

Just because one group of people bring more friends then another does not mean CCP has to fix an issue where people hate you so much they won't lift a finger to help you. Considering the group of people I am really not surprised either that the OP needs help from CCP since they can't get anybody to help them anymore.

Entitlement of the highest order.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#266 - 2014-06-05 12:54:56 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

Yes, hisec wars have "profit" as a goal at times.



Question was if it was common for high sec wars to have profit as a goal, not if it happens at all.

You are probably just gonna dodge the question again, so consider this my last attempt at getting an answer.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#267 - 2014-06-05 13:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Yes, hisec wars have "profit" as a goal at times.



Question was if it was common for high sec wars to have profit as a goal, not if it happens at all.

You are probably just gonna dodge the question again, so consider this my last attempt at getting an answer.


At very broad strokes, wardecs happen for:

1. Profit (mercs, whatever)
2. You ticked off the wrong person (Hi Kane!)
3. Get out of "my system"
4. You're easy pickings
5. Nice moon/POCO, we'll take it.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Buhamut Zeo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#268 - 2014-06-05 13:52:22 UTC
Question

If you want good fights, go to low or null sec. No idea why you think you anyone should just up and offer you the kills you deserve in hi sec.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#269 - 2014-06-05 14:03:44 UTC
Hi-sec wars are pretty broken and useless for a large part of the player base, when they should be useful and fun for anyone.

I'm not going to go through this thread and try to find 1 or 2 good ideas out of the dozens of propositions made by people who want hi-sec wars to benefit their playstyle and no one else's, nor am I going to add to the flustercuck with my own suggestion.

CCP, you can fix this. It just has to be approached with a little common sense and you can create something that is more than a niche style of gameplay enjoyed by a few and bothersome to the majority of everyone else. Every Hi-sec corp should feel motivated to war dec other high sec corps for personal gain from time to time.

You can do it, and you can do it without any suggestions or input, just apply a little common sense.

Fix Hi-Sec Wars.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#270 - 2014-06-05 14:10:04 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

You can do it, and you can do it without any suggestions or input, just apply a little common sense.

Fix Hi-Sec Wars.


What's wrong with them in the first place?

And let's see you say something besides a banal generality like "carebears don't like getting shot at", because #1 that's tough luck for them, and #2 it's not exactly a problem.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Llyona
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#271 - 2014-06-05 15:07:28 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
Don't like having neut logi help them means bringing your own neut logi or living with the fact that they are better organized than you.

When a developer team is interested in determining if a particular mechanical strategy is balanced, they can utilize multiple models to determine the level of balance of that mechanical strategy. One of the first red flags that a mechanical strategy is imbalanced is if the only viable counter of equal (or greater) power to that mechanical strategy is itself. To create an analogy: You are arguing that in a game of rock/paper/scissors, it is okay for scissors to beat rock and paper, because you can always pick scissors as well.

Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:


What exactly makes this "not engaging" but only "interfering"?

And how would a DPS ship removing an equivalent amount of HP from the opposing ship as the logi ship repairs be separated from the logi under this definition?



Firstly... The logi is not "hurting" anyone. They are repairing someone. Those two things are opposite, by their very definition.

As such, they are interfering rather than engaging.

Do you also want a Logi who reps someone who has engaged a suspect to be Concorded as well, as they too are interfering in a conflict?


You are correctly assessing the fact that the logi is repairing, and thereby helping, the pilot they are assisting. However, you are overlooking the implications and consequences such an action creates. I would argue that the logi is bringing harm to the opposing pilots. As you could imagine, that logi pilot is allowing an object (that is a source of harm to the opposition) to continue to exist, when otherwise it likely would not.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

You can do it, and you can do it without any suggestions or input, just apply a little common sense.

Fix Hi-Sec Wars.


What's wrong with them in the first place?

And let's see you say something besides a banal generality like "carebears don't like getting shot at", because #1 that's tough luck for them, and #2 it's not exactly a problem.

As I understand it, current mechanics allow for an entire corporation to empty out into a new corporation, without the war dec following. I've read accounts of a corporation having declared war, only for the belligerent to find the next day that the corporation completely devoid of members and closed. As you can imagine, this becomes incredibly frustrating to contractors (and anyone else for that matter), as now they have to declare a brand new war, that will likely result in the same way.

One recommendation I would have for CCP is the institution of "Reinforced Mode" for corporations. That is, corporation members cannot resign from a corporation or transfer to another corporation for the duration of the initial war declaration.Of course, this time period can be altered per CCP's determination.

I'd imagine a few consequences would be:
1. Capsuleers will stay docked up until they can abandon ship.
2. Instead of hiding, the corporation members may actually form frigate, dessie fleets and find out PVP is fun
3. The corporation as a whole may simply decide to wait out the timer and move to a new corporation.

I'm sure there's ample other consequences I haven't anticipated.

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#272 - 2014-06-05 15:35:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

What's wrong with them in the first place?

And let's see you say something besides a banal generality like "carebears don't like getting shot at", because #1 that's tough luck for them, and #2 it's not exactly a problem.



Well **** the idea of not getting dragged into this daytime TV drama I guess...

Why do I always have to compulsively check for responses, and then reply... What is this disease?

I don't care about carebears getting shot at. I shoot at them sometimes myself. I just don't get what's so exciting about it when they don't shoot back. You might as well be ratting.

Hi-sec war mechanics currently encourage players to either take the hi-sec war deccing mechanic to it's extreme, or completely ignore it until something prompts them to spend 50 million isk to annoy some other corp that moved into their belts, once every 18 months or so.

There's no motivation for a middle ground between those two extremes. People either like it and they go all out or they have absolutely no use for it, and that is a 100% undeniable sign that something is broken.

Currently there is no reason for the defender to fight back if the odds are even just slightly out of their favor, or even perceived as that. They lose too much, and the aggressor gains too much, to make it worth the risk. There has to be something to motivate the defender to take those risks.

I'm also not against the profitability of hi-sec war deccing, but there has to be something to it other than just randomly war-deccing small-to-mid sized corporations whose members you see in Jita occasionally. War Deccers should be motivated to pick their targets more judiciously. I think an option for counter-bribing CONCORD when you are war-decced would bring a whole new dynamic to the table, with War Deccers having to decide how much they are willing to pay for access to a certain group of targets, and the defenders having to decide how much they want to pay to avoid the war or if they should just suck it up and fight, because either way they're losing ISK. You've also got the option of allowing CONCORD to keep both bribes regardless of who is the highest, but this could be punitive to the aggressor if defenders learn a few easy bidding tactics.

This isn't going to stop the real profit for people who War-Dec constantly: those jump freighter pilots carrying 5 or 10 billion in cargo? They're most likely not the people making the decision on how much avoiding a war is worth to the corporation, and they're obviously not above taking stupid risks, or you wouldn't get those kills in the first place. Haulers will still haul during wartime.

Bringing in allies could use a little touching up on too. It might be helpful to allow defenders to bring allies into the war at a discounted rate until the number of defending players matches the number of aggressors. I have no problem with a 15 man corp war deccing a 500 man corp, but what the hell is a 15 man corp supposed to do when they're the defenders against the 500 man corp? The first ally is free and that's great, but how often is a 15 man corp going to be able to convince another corp with at least a couple hundred people to join them, or afford another corp with a couple hundred people as mercenaries? I'm not saying they should get carte blanche to bring in anyone they want until the numbers are even, but if there was a sizable yet scaling discount to bring in allies until the underdog wasn't so much of an underdog anymore, wars might just be much more interesting for everyone involved. By orders of magnitude.

There are so many ways to make it so that the defending party has something to do other than run and hide. You just have to give them options. Right now the majority of viable (Key word here, VIABLE. Defenders always think in terms of costs, and hiring merc groups as support is often more expensive than avoiding the war.) options available to the defenders involve avoiding conflict. They are in no way motivated to fight back, and aggressors are motivated to push their aggression to extremes because as soon as the defender starts to avoid conflict, they are no longer at risk. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by acting as aggressively as possible.

There's so many dynamics to this I could fill pages, but it's all so easily fixed I can't be asked to bother.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#273 - 2014-06-05 15:50:09 UTC
@ Bohneik Itohn:

So your solution is to reintroduce dec shield?

Do you have any idea how bad of an idea that is? Nevermind that your supposed problems have nothing whatsoever to do with the mechanics of wardecs. You just want to add more mechanics to solve a meta situation that you view as a problem.

But wardeccing people you see in Jita all the time is NOT a problem. That's picking your targets wisely.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2014-06-05 17:00:36 UTC
Surely picking target's who won't just jump corp is picking targets well too? If a corp that gets wardec'd decides it isn't interested and jumps all members to another corp they are simply using a currently valid mechanism to avoid a war ( in the same way the wardeccers tried to easily force a war onto them).

For those who say this is cowardly there are an equal number of hisec folks who don't want to be involved in PvP who will say it's good business practice to avoid loss of mining capability etc. It would probably be better for those who want real fights to pick corps known to fight back from the killboards, saves wasting time and isk.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#275 - 2014-06-05 17:06:10 UTC
It would be nice if there were an API reference to public-facing corporation information, including war history.

Would love to be able to pull some data and calculate the mean and median isk destroyed per war. Would put money on the median value being 0.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2014-06-05 17:08:12 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
It would be nice if there were an API reference to public-facing corporation information, including war history.

Would love to be able to pull some data and calculate the mean and median isk destroyed per war. Would put money on the median value being 0.


Can that be gathered from killboards? Do they allow filtering by corp? Might help corps avoid deccing corps that will simply melt away
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#277 - 2014-06-05 18:27:16 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
It would be nice if there were an API reference to public-facing corporation information, including war history.

Would love to be able to pull some data and calculate the mean and median isk destroyed per war. Would put money on the median value being 0.


Can that be gathered from killboards? Do they allow filtering by corp? Might help corps avoid deccing corps that will simply melt away



With a comparatively immense amount of effort you could maybe cobble something together with killboard scraping, but you would still need the war-dec start/end times to delineate "wartime" kills from simple ganks or aggression baiting. I don't really see it being practical - certainly not within the constraints of the effort I would be willing to expend.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#278 - 2014-06-05 18:35:31 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


Can that be gathered from killboards? Do they allow filtering by corp? Might help corps avoid deccing corps that will simply melt away


I can't find info on all wars a corp is in on any killboard I know. And on the killboard I have checked you can easily cheat in any such information because it only looks at corp name, so if you corp jump out of your own wars when you accidentally dec someone who fight back, but make a new corp with same name, it doesn't show you ran.

Also remember killboards are a one-sided story, only the information people want to put there goes there - and we don't know if the programmer is favoring certain people. Making websites to scam eve players is not exactly a rare thing. All in all a very poor source of information.

In game you can see corp history and the corps wars, but have to do a lot of manual work to get any numbers out of that. The view for allies is currently broken and doesn't show who were allies, making it even harder to research some corps.

And nowhere can you see all the war decs an agressor had initiated but weren't active wars yet, if they corp jump out of their own wars (the defender get a corp notification when this happens, but the pending wars simply disappear from the public information of both corps).
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#279 - 2014-06-05 19:08:42 UTC
Llyona wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
Don't like having neut logi help them means bringing your own neut logi or living with the fact that they are better organized than you.

When a developer team is interested in determining if a particular mechanical strategy is balanced, they can utilize multiple models to determine the level of balance of that mechanical strategy. One of the first red flags that a mechanical strategy is imbalanced is if the only viable counter of equal (or greater) power to that mechanical strategy is itself. To create an analogy: You are arguing that in a game of rock/paper/scissors, it is okay for scissors to beat rock and paper, because you can always pick scissors as well.



except there are counters to logi besides more logi.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Velicitia
XS Tech
#280 - 2014-06-05 19:23:26 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Llyona wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
Don't like having neut logi help them means bringing your own neut logi or living with the fact that they are better organized than you.

When a developer team is interested in determining if a particular mechanical strategy is balanced, they can utilize multiple models to determine the level of balance of that mechanical strategy. One of the first red flags that a mechanical strategy is imbalanced is if the only viable counter of equal (or greater) power to that mechanical strategy is itself. To create an analogy: You are arguing that in a game of rock/paper/scissors, it is okay for scissors to beat rock and paper, because you can always pick scissors as well.



except there are counters to logi besides more logi.


specifically, but in no particular order:

- switching targets
- ewar
- alpha strikes
- cap warfare


Note that you can employ your own "neutrals" who use any of the above, and that they will be UNABLE to be shot at by your war targets.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia