EVE General Discussion

LOL... some ppl like to act that they have no brain... or don't have a clue about EVE market and mineral prices...
But... they need to write so that they look smart and be vets...
Or they don't give a damn about anything because their botts do their work so they don't need to look at prices... and now they are afraid that something will be changed and they will need to buy/program new botts...

Prices of minerals are at lowest levels... and everybody knows that only you are saying that's not the case...

And you are so in drones and don't know how they influenced mineral prices when they were introduced...
Zydrine & Megacyte prices tumbled by about 2/3 within 3 months of the drone regions being introduced...
And prices of low ends fell a less... but still so much...

And Zydrine and Megacyte are soooo low end minerals by you... because you say that prices of high ends have nothing with alloys...

So please... if you want to make some TV novel that will lead ppl to miss-conclusion... do your homework...


And about "we need to have a choice and miners can **** themselfs"
Lets turn that back... and give drone regions something that will make them so unprofitable because at the same time we will introduce worm-regions that will give 4X more of that same loot...
Then I will say... "no... don't help them because wee need to have a choice... we need to build, sell, bott... and i saw prices... they are not that bad even they fell 3 times so there is money"

Yes there are. They're just not doing any mining because it's a waste of time when other sources of minerals are providing so much more.
…it would be worth mining again so people would hop to it, and that would bring the prices down again.

CCP just don't listen...
They never give a damn about indy ppl... :(
now they buff metal scraps (volume of 0.01)... and that is directly nerf to mining... :/
so... CCP is playing with indy nerves...

Yes and no.

2007, ISK/m3 for hi-sec ores was generally between 65-110 (Omber was king of the hill at around 105-110 due to Isogen prices).

2008 - after the drone regions came online and a few other changes, tritanium crashed to about 2.25-2.35 range and a lot of hi-sec ores struggled to reach 80 ISK/m3 (Veld was a miserable 60-65 ISK/m3).

2009 - I recall lo-sec ores (Jasp, Hedb, Hemo) all being slightly worthelss (in the 60-100 ISK/m3 range), which was the same as you could get in hi-sec for a lot less risk (hi-sec ores were all 85-100 ISK/m3).

Right now, things are pretty even keel for hi-sec ores, with most of them in a narrow 90-105 ISK/m3 range. The laggard is still Omber at 70-ish, and Pyrox is up around 110-120 ISK/m3. Lo-sec ores are in the 150-175 ISK/m3 range. The ABCs are about 250-350 ISK/m3 (based on empire mineral values).

(Anyone have hard numbers for what the mineral prices were back in '05 and '06?)

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing alloys turned down and reprocessing made more difficult - but I don't think turning that spigot off all at once would be good for the economy. Better to turn it down gradually (and figure out what else the drones could drop to keep income up).

Currently on sisi you get the same amount as tq so there is nothing that i can see that has changed

I apologize for the length of this post to those that do have a concept of Supply & Demand and have constructively contributed to the discussion. It seems there are too many trolls with a political axe to grind or no understanding of the S&D concept. Forget the fact that they just so happen to come from the Drone regions. The fact is that alloys, regardless of where they are sourced, represent a massive amount of low end construction minerals in this game. An amount so significant that, without CCP increasing either the refining yields or total quantity of ore in the game or both, their removal would have a significant inflationary effect on the value of minerals as well as everything that requires minerals in their construction. It can be simply said that with no other changes other than the removal of alloys, meaningful price inflation at all levels of the supply chain will occur. If demand remains constant and supply is cut, prices increase.

What people need to remember is that alloys are generally biased toward the higher volume construction-related minerals. They include little in the way of high ends like megacyte and zydrine, which were nerfed well over a year ago in favor of higher amounts of lower end minerals. If you recall at that time, CCP cut the Meta 0 drops in missions, increased certain mid-range mining yields and changed aloys by reducing high ends in favor of low ends. CCP's purpose was clear: put the courcing of industrial related minerals in the hands of miners everywhere and ratter in the drone regions. When you see the price of alloys like plush at 25,000 isk (Jita 11/20) approxitately 72% its value is in the 4,096 units of trit (3.33) and 1024 units of Pyerite (4.25). The 4 units of Zydrine (798) constitutes only 12.8% of the value of one unit of plush. Megacyte (2825), of which only 1 units is derived from each unit of Glossy compound (27400), only accounts for 10.3% of Glossy's value.

So the real question with all the ranting in this thread is which mineral are you "industrialists" trying to save by eliminating alloys? Because if it is high ends, then removing alloys from the game will have little to no impact on the prices of megacyte or Zydrine. The prices of these minerals were devalued by the inclusion of hidden belts, which resulted in a vast amount of supply put on the market as regions all over New Eden gained virtually unimpeded access to minerals they may have previously not been afforded in their region. As a reminder, not all 0.0 regions in Eve had broad access to every high-end ore prior to the introduction of hidden belts. Yet today, claiming sov and installing an infrastructure hub gives any miner in 0.0 access to reasonably significant quantities of these valuable ores. Also note that hidden belts are primarily mined for their high-end output as there are not significant quantities of low ends like Trit, Pyer or Mex found in them.

So where are we today in terms of the mineral prices most effected by alloys? 12 months ago Tritanium was selling for roughly 2.20 isk p/u. On Jan 1, 2011 the average price of trit in Jita was 2.22. By March 1, 2001 the price increased to 3.19, a 43.6% increase. Since that time its value has increased more modestly, hitting an average daily high above 3.50 and currently selling for about 3.33 or 50% above where it was exactly one year ago. High sec trit miners should be rejoicing. Pyerite was selling at 3.77 on average a year ago and today is at 4.30 (a 14% increase over year ago figures). We all know the ride Nocxium took over the last year (currently up 44% Y-O-Y) but even the year ago price is significantly higher than it was 18-24 months ago. The fact is that the minerals that drive the price of alloys and are most used in manufacturing, have risen over the past year.

In the end, mineral values are driven by supply and demand. It is obvious that with rising prices for construction-related minerals, the continued existence of alloys is not creating downward pressure on low end mineral prices. The case can be made that the introduction of the drone regions years ago did in fact cause the value of many minerals to fall. But this was the result of the introduction of a completely new source of supply in the form of both alloys and mineable resources. Yes, they have mining belts too. But at the same time, the Eve universe of players and buildable items has also expanded, thus creating an offsetting increase in demand. Fully offsetting? Perhaps not completely. But while the drone regions may generate a significant amount of mineral supply, they do so in a way that requires more than just killing NPCs and automatically collecting isk. Logistics or the ability to add value through production are both key to seeing isk hit the wallets of players in the drone regions. On top of this, every bit of isk derived from alloys, as with mining in Eve, does not act as an isk faucet. Thus, increased isk in the game is not generated by the activities of the drone regions. Isk merely changes hands with regard to the mining/ratting/production that takes place there.

In the end, if alloys are removed, the drone regions will need to become bounty space, as are all other regions of 0.0, or become a dead zone. Each has its own significant ramifications for the broader universe of Eve. If the drone regions become bountry space, an entirely new isk faucet will be created, one larger than the introduciton of Incursions. As more isk magically enters the game, this this will have an inflationary impact on the price of everything. As with any economy, if you simply print more money, the value of goods moves higher. If alloys are removed but the drones do not become bounty space, this would result in pushing a large number of players into other areas of space, creating more competition for the now more limited resources available in the game. Neither of these are necessarily positive outcomes for the broader market economy.

All you people complaining about how drone regions are so great and are destroying the mineral market...

BTW Drone regions have been broken for years. The alliances who have found success in these regions considering, deserve a tip of the hat for being successful there.

Drone poop is ALL that drone regions has. Nothing else. There are no bounties, no sec status changes for ratting. Exploration is broken to hell (you can even find the odd mag site, which gives you nothing of value btw, and, unlike all other mag sites, it requires a CODEBREAKER to complete!!!). We also get no shiny faction or deadspace modules, and have to settle for mediocre t2 loot drops. You'll never see any officer loot from drone regions either. Doesn't exist.

I do wonder what would happen if they stopped being the dominant supplier of mins. Yes, the mins market would definitely go up, but my guess is, the prices of everything else would too. For people who like to pvp, it's nice to be able to buy ships cheaply, I wouldn't want this to get worse.

Severian - you are correct, we are not irreplaceable. But neither are miners. If CCP wants to put minerals in the game it will find a way. But what you and many others are asking is for CCP to make your game play style more profitable at the expense of someone else. Quit being a hater and figure out how to play the game to your advantage.

The problem isn't the number of miners. It is the volume of minerals required to supply the market. There is simply not enough available ore to be mined in the existing belts. Worse yet, there isn't enough ore for hisec miners where competition in the belts is much higher than in null sec. For example:

1 million m3 of Veldpsar = 10 million units = 30 million trit at perfect refine. Assuming you mine in a hulk with T2 crystals, a 5% implant and 2 minute cycles from a rorqual, each hulk brings in 56,040 units per cycle or 1,681,200 units per hour. That does not include any time for changing targets, hauling, or moving to a new belt. If you have 2 miners plus the rorqual pilot, it will take you 3 hours.

30 million trit = 7,324 units of plush compound. This can be done by a two man gang in 1 carrier and 1 noctis in the same 3 hours.

So both can do about the same amount of trit over 3 hours. But the real question is: where will the miner find 10 million units of Veldspar? Not in any single system in the game today and certainly not on a repeatable basis. What I failed to mention in the above example is that the ratting pilot will also take in other minerals, such as 7.5 million units of Pyerite, 1.7 million units of mexallon and on down the line. The point is that CCP would need to do far more than just remove alloys. They would need to increase the size of the existing belts in terms of ore amounts and probably increase the refining yields to make up for the loss of alloys.

Maybe we should let alloys stay but CCP can tax the ratters and give it to the miners. The we can create a welfare system in Eve. Or how about this: Get rid of all alloys and let mining be the only place you get get minerals. But in return, CCP removes all ore from hisec. Mining will only exist in lowsec and null sec space. If it is that profitable then it shouldn't be in hisec anyway. Deal?

My Christmas wish - CCP gives the drone regions bounties so I can be like everyone else and not have to work for my isk. Second, CCP gives me free kills because PL gets more than I do. Its only fair.

Didn't see anyone posting this yet so here goes:

Thnx for that...
now i need to study it...