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Why is refining ore and mods instant?

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Cristl
#21 - 2014-05-28 19:05:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cristl wrote:
But that still doesn't differentiate it from a host of other activities.
…such as?


I listed quite a few. But anyway: copying blueprints, mining, researching ME and PE, inventing, manufacturing T1 modules, manufacturing T1 ships, manufacturing T2 modules, manufacturing T2 ships, reverse engineering etc

Quote:
Quote:
What is different about refining and its associated skills that sets it apart from other industry skills as far as time-sinking goes?
The difference is that there's no meaningful reason to slow it down.
Another difference it that there are sufficient meaningful reasons to make it instant., such as how it would pointlessly penalise logistics (again, see compression being made instant).


Agh! Not nested quotes!

This isn't a thread about slowing things down. It's about why skills like research or manufacturing are beneficial to multiple characters, but refining skills are only needed on a single character per player bloc. It's not consistent.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2014-05-28 19:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cristl wrote:
I listed quite a few. But anyway: copying blueprints, mining, researching ME and PE, inventing, manufacturing T1 modules, manufacturing T1 ships, manufacturing T2 modules, manufacturing T2 ships, reverse engineering etc
…and it is differentiated from those in many ways. All of those are about creating stuff that feed into a market supply chain. Refining does not; the supply has already been fed by the creation of the stuff you chuck into it. There is nothing that needs to happen slower because the delays have already been incurred through the various creation processes.

Come to think, it's almost exactly like research: you spend time once, and then you gain an efficiency bonus. So there's your consistency if you want it.

Quote:
This isn't a thread about slowing things down. It's about why skills like research or manufacturing are beneficial to multiple characters, but refining skills are only needed on a single character per player bloc. It's not consistent.

…aside from needing more than a single player per player block, you mean, since it would be insanely inefficient to only have one refiner? Mainly because consistency is irrelevant.

The reason it is the way it is is because there is no reason for it to be any other way and tons of reasons for it not to generate the kind of delays that production processes do.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#23 - 2014-05-28 19:28:41 UTC
Why not add a candy crush mini-game to refining? The better you are at matching your minerals, the faster and better you refine.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Minarete
Celestial Tomb
#24 - 2014-05-28 19:41:05 UTC
I have always wanted to know why we do not have to refuel ALL ships
Cristl
#25 - 2014-05-28 20:23:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
All of those are about creating stuff that feed into a market supply chain. Refining does not; the supply has already been fed by the creation of the stuff you chuck into it.


Huh? Refining doesn't feed into a market supply chain? That's illogical. Also, "the supply has already been fed by the creation of the stuff you chuck into it" hardly makes sense. I know you're not a native English speaker, and I couldn't even attempt to say anything in Swedish, but that still doesn't make sense.

Ok, please explain in terms that a drunk could understand why turning veldspar and scordite into tritanium and pyerite should be instant but require skills, while turning tritanium and pyerite into carbonised lead or whatever should take skills and time.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-05-28 20:25:34 UTC
Tenchi Sal wrote:
This game doesn't need yet another boring time sink. Just leave it alone.
Dave Stark wrote:
cos there's nothing interesting or fun about having a mechanic where reprocessing has a delay.
OP, you got the best possible answers within the first 6 replies.

Other than that, nobody really knows.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Scarlett LaBlanc
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-05-28 20:31:43 UTC
Since you asked for to be THAT simple...

When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.

There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.

Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?

To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job!
Cristl
#28 - 2014-05-28 20:36:58 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tenchi Sal wrote:
This game doesn't need yet another boring time sink. Just leave it alone.
Dave Stark wrote:
cos there's nothing interesting or fun about having a mechanic where reprocessing has a delay.
OP, you got the best possible answers within the first 6 replies.

Other than that, nobody really knows.


*sigh* The OP is about 100 words. However, for the twitter generation, here's a portion of the OP:

Cristl wrote:
... I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind ...


Okay. Let's try a reverse argument: Why do other aspects of item creation take time, skills and are enhanced by collaboration but the step ORE -> MINERALS is done by a single alt instantly?

I don't give a shit about lore, but just from a game-mechanics standpoint as far as I can see reprocessing skills are getting the short end of the stick in eve.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-05-28 20:38:07 UTC
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
Since you asked for to be THAT simple...

When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.

There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.

Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?

To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job!

Actually this is a good one.

Also, refining/reprocessing is the first step in building things. It's the same for anything you want to build and you have no control over the results. So, a time sink isn't really needed as it is to, say, make ammo production much faster than t2 battleship production.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Cristl
#30 - 2014-05-28 20:44:23 UTC
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
Since you asked for to be THAT simple...

When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.

There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.

Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?

To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job!


But don't you see that people who spent time learning refining skills get shafted because a single alt can do the refining for 10,000 of his or her pals? That's not eve-like is it? Asteroid -> Ore -> Minerals -> T1 goods should all take time shouldn't they? Why is the second step instant in that chain?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-05-28 20:44:39 UTC
Please do not get unnecessarilly excited. Instead, make an effort to read more carefully, ok?

I'll do my best to help.

Cristl wrote:
... I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind ...
Nor does CCP. They thought delayed refining would be uninteresting and not fun (quoting Dave), so they made it instant.

Hopefully it's clear now.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#32 - 2014-05-28 20:47:57 UTC
Ive always wondered how 50 cubic meters of armor can cover a Titan in a layer 1.6 meters thick.

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Cristl
#33 - 2014-05-28 20:51:31 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Please do not get unnecessarilly (sic) excited. Instead, make an effort to read more carefully, ok?


Literally made me laugh out loud, so cheers for that Big smile. If you can give me a link to that dev quote then I'll promise to be less excitable in the future Big smile
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#34 - 2014-05-28 20:53:48 UTC
Minarete wrote:
I have always wanted to know why we do not have to refuel ALL ships

Ships run on deuterium recovered from...ah..."waste water" produced by the crew.

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Cristl
#35 - 2014-05-28 20:56:56 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Ive always wondered how 50 cubic meters of armor can cover a Titan in a layer 1.6 meters thick.


If you start down that road Vince, you'll ask why lasers have a long optimal but short falloff, while projectiles have the opposite. Just don't go there. Why does space have friction and an 'up' etc. Nope Big smile

Gameplay questions are always up for review though.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-05-28 20:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Cristl wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Please do not get unnecessarilly (sic) excited. Instead, make an effort to read more carefully, ok?


Literally made me laugh out loud, so cheers for that Big smile. If you can give me a link to that dev quote then I'll promise to be less excitable in the future Big smile

No need for a dev quote. If they're rehauling industry and haven't changed this, it means that they're convinced that there's no good gameplay reason to do so.

Also see my other post for my personal best guess: you can only get predetermined thing(s) out of reprocessing, and they're minerals aka the six (iirc) basic building blocks of (almost) everything else. No variations = no need to time-differentiate 'complex' products from 'simple' ones.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-05-28 21:03:11 UTC
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
Since you asked for to be THAT simple...

When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.

There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.

Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?

To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job!

this logic leads to instant copying. After all you already spent some time researching BPO....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-05-28 21:08:06 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tenchi Sal wrote:
This game doesn't need yet another boring time sink. Just leave it alone.
Dave Stark wrote:
cos there's nothing interesting or fun about having a mechanic where reprocessing has a delay.
OP, you got the best possible answers within the first 6 replies.

Other than that, nobody really knows.

Actually there is better answer: this is just another half-ass designed feature. It was implemented once and then everybody from CCP just forgot about it.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Ohhhh Feely Nice
Feely Good Logistics
#39 - 2014-05-28 21:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ohhhh Feely Nice
Tippia wrote:
Cristl wrote:
I listed quite a few. But anyway: copying blueprints, mining, researching ME and PE, inventing, manufacturing T1 modules, manufacturing T1 ships, manufacturing T2 modules, manufacturing T2 ships, reverse engineering etc
…and it is differentiated from those in many ways. All of those are about creating stuff that feed into a market supply chain. Refining does not; the supply has already been fed by the creation of the stuff you chuck into it. There is nothing that needs to happen slower because the delays have already been incurred through the various creation processes.

Come to think, it's almost exactly like research: you spend time once, and then you gain an efficiency bonus. So there's your consistency if you want it.

Refined minerals sell for more and are more useful than ores. It should therefore require some time to achieve the result.
When you research or invent a blueprint, you spend time once. Should the product manufacture itself instantly because of that?

Tippia wrote:

Quote:
This isn't a thread about slowing things down. It's about why skills like research or manufacturing are beneficial to multiple characters, but refining skills are only needed on a single character per player bloc. It's not consistent.

…aside from needing more than a single player per player block, you mean, since it would be insanely inefficient to only have one refiner? Mainly because consistency is irrelevant

The reason it is the way it is is because there is no reason for it to be any other way and tons of reasons for it not to generate the kind of delays that production processes do.

It's a balance issue, that is the reason. You are taking X item and converting it into Y item. You are doing so because it is advantageous. This coincides quite nicely with research and the like and should be balanced accordingly.

I am also unsure of how you've concluded it would be "insanely inefficient" when no one has offered any numbers as to how long it should take to refine.
Cristl
#40 - 2014-05-28 21:12:27 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
...they're rehauling (sic) industry and haven't changed this, it means that they're convinced that there's no good gameplay reason to do so...


Don't be naive, they could quite easily just be scared of pissing tons of people off. I'm still waiting for a reasoned argument for refining skills being redundant for all but one dude per group of players.