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Serious concerns about the renter isk injection in the eve economy?

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Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#21 - 2014-05-27 21:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Trin Javidan
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Most likely because the flood of FW alts are offsetting the 0.0 renters. That is IF the renter situation was that bad, which I wouldn't know.


Isnt FW more dangerous? Srry i am a noob, i would think that in FW you can be shot by a whole coalition everywere and in renter system you simply hide when some red is in local? an or use mobile bubbles?
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#22 - 2014-05-27 22:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Trin Javidan wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Most likely because the flood of FW alts are offsetting the 0.0 renters. That is IF the renter situation was that bad, which I wouldn't know.


Isnt FW more dangerous? Srry i am a noob, i would think that in FW you can be shot by a whole coalition everywere and in renter system you simply hide when some red is in local? an or use mobile bubbles?


Yes and no, you can gain a massive amount of LP just by orbiting a beacon with little risk so long as you spam D-scan. I gained 50k last night in a 2 week old pilot by doing that, without guns even. That is until I got extremely bored and started playing WoT. However it is easy to avoid conflict for the most part, using similar tactics to renters, with more ease actually because you don't need to deal with bubbles.

The only benefit of FW or LP in general is the fact that it is a massive ISK sink, in comparison to 0.0 plexing/ratting.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
John Ending
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-05-27 22:07:04 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:
Hi,

I am wondering what the 0.0 renter status and the isk injection means for the eve economy. Does someone know this?


It means a lot of Titans.
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-05-27 22:14:59 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
...
Yes and no, you can gain a massive amount of LP just by orbiting a beacon with little risk so long as you spam D-scan. I gained 50k last night in a 2 week old pilot by doing that, without guns even.....



Totally. FW dudes cloak when disturbed, decloak when short d-scan goes clear. It's dumber and more lucrative than mining and they make very satisfying kills. Smug farmer frozen corpses are the best.
I don't think OP understands what isk injection really is, so easy on the points and dps yo.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-05-27 22:23:17 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Most likely because the flood of FW alts are offsetting the 0.0 renters. That is IF the renter situation was that bad, which I wouldn't know.


Isnt FW more dangerous? Srry i am a noob, i would think that in FW you can be shot by a whole coalition everywere and in renter system you simply hide when some red is in local? an or use mobile bubbles?

If you know what you are doing you can farm all the plexes in one system from DT to DT even while AFK and only moving your farmer when the timer is done. Some FW systems are so dead you might as well have rolled into Jove space with no way in or out.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-05-27 22:33:35 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Well if renters didn't do it, then the alliance holder pilots would. So I'm not sure I understand the problem.

Also, loot is not an ISK injector.


Renting works because of the huge amount of otherwise unoccupied space in nullsec. If members of the alliances that own that space would inject that level of ISK, renting wouldn't need to exist because more alliances would make more ISK from taxes than they would from renting that space out.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#27 - 2014-05-27 22:44:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
How is it injecting isk? Outside of normal ratting/anomaly income that would have come from non-renters anyways.

Because there are more people out there due to the ability to rent than there would be if renting was not possible. Right now there are renters AND alliance members. If renting were impossible, there would just be alliance members. Result: More people slurping up the big bounties.

But I see no way to make renting impossible, so we have what we have.

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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#28 - 2014-05-27 22:49:28 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
How is it injecting isk? Outside of normal ratting/anomaly income that would have come from non-renters anyways.

Because there are more people out there due to the ability to rent than there would be if renting was not possible. Right now there are renters AND alliance members. If renting were impossible, there would just be alliance members. Result: More people slurping up the big bounties.

But I see no way to make renting impossible, so we have what we have.


Not much different than the old NC that would recruit anything with a pulse and would just PVE all the time. Only difference is they charge for it now.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2014-05-27 22:52:18 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Because there are more people out there due to the ability to rent than there would be if renting was not possible. Right now there are renters AND alliance members. If renting were impossible, there would just be alliance members. Result: More people slurping up the big bounties.
That assumes that they wouldn't make the same kind of ISK elsewhere and that the alliances wouldn't compensate for their income loss by generating more ISK themselves.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#30 - 2014-05-27 22:53:54 UTC
These days, would you invite your typical renter into your alliance, if, somehow, renting became impossible? No?

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#31 - 2014-05-27 22:59:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Because there are more people out there due to the ability to rent than there would be if renting was not possible. Right now there are renters AND alliance members. If renting were impossible, there would just be alliance members. Result: More people slurping up the big bounties.
That assumes that they wouldn't make the same kind of ISK elsewhere and that the alliances wouldn't compensate for their income loss by generating more ISK themselves.

That.s right, I'm assuming the bounties from rats in null sec belts are higher than the ones in low sec and high sec. Remember, the OPs question was about isk injection, not income.

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Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-05-27 23:07:21 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Trin Javidan wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Most likely because the flood of FW alts are offsetting the 0.0 renters. That is IF the renter situation was that bad, which I wouldn't know.


Isnt FW more dangerous? Srry i am a noob, i would think that in FW you can be shot by a whole coalition everywere and in renter system you simply hide when some red is in local? an or use mobile bubbles?


Yes and no, you can gain a massive amount of LP just by orbiting a beacon with little risk so long as you spam D-scan. I gained 50k last night in a 2 week old pilot by doing that, without guns even. That is until I got extremely bored and started playing WoT. However it is easy to avoid conflict for the most part, using similar tactics to renters, with more ease actually because you don't need to deal with bubbles.

The only benefit of FW or LP in general is the fact that it is a massive ISK sink, in comparison to 0.0 plexing/ratting.


Also a problem that can happen with over plexing in FW is people flooding the market with items driving the price down. This good if you are a buyer, not so much if you are a seller.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#33 - 2014-05-27 23:07:58 UTC
Quick actual figures. Based on CCP's figures for 2012-2013 Null sec ratting/anoms injected somewhere in the region of 25-30 Trillion isk a month which is about 50% of isk injected into the economy. That doesn't account for loot obviously since loot doesn't inject money into the economy.
Figure Derived by Null being responsible for 72% of bounties/kills (depending on translation) and total bounty figures released in their economic presentation.

Total sinks for the same period were somewhere around 30-40 trillion a month, meaning 20-30 trillion a month was being outright injected. Of course a lot of this then gets 'destroyed' on inactive accounts, and spreads across population growth. According to the last releases we are actually experiencing slight deflation.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#34 - 2014-05-28 01:22:23 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:
Hi,

I am wondering what the 0.0 renter status and the isk injection means for the eve economy. Does someone know this?


As it turns out the EVE economy is extremely resilient to the existence of excess currency (price is set by the highest bidder not the largest wallet), but like all MMO economies it is sensitive to excess objects. Unlike most MMOs the excess objects tend to get destroyed which is why after 11 years we still get paid for collecting them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2014-05-28 01:35:32 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
That.s right, I'm assuming the bounties from rats in null sec belts are higher than the ones in low sec and high sec. Remember, the OPs question was about isk injection, not income.

Sure, but just because there are higher bounties available (if you have access to the right systems) doesn't mean that the injection will be higher. People grind ISK for a reason, and that reason tends to have the same price regardless of their preferred method of ISK injection.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Quick actual figures. Based on CCP's figures for 2012-2013 Null sec ratting/anoms injected somewhere in the region of 25-30 Trillion isk a month which is about 50% of isk injected into the economy.
That sounds awfully high, considering that bounties as a whole is maybe 50% of the ISK injected.
Thead Enco
HR..
#36 - 2014-05-28 01:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Thead Enco
Trin Javidan wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Trin Javidan wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Still waiting for you to tell us of these serious concerns tbh. I care not for supermarket taste testers or loss leaders.



I know you dont care, you are just trolling PirateLol
Ahh so you not telling us the actual serious concerns you allude too, makes me a troll?

So I ask, what serious concerns do you mean?


i dont know, you tell me... me thinks i should place my forgotten ? behind it i guess Roll


WAT?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2014-05-28 01:52:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
That sounds awfully high, considering that bounties as a whole is maybe 50% of the ISK injected.

Link appears to have been taken down to my reference material, but bounties were around 60-70% if I remember right, I'll look through the 2014 fanfest economy video at home tonight if I get time to check if they put the 2013-2014 graph up at any point showing the same dataset, and what numbers that had.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-05-28 01:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Vincent Athena wrote:


But I see no way to make renting impossible, so we have what we have.



What an odd thing to say - as if renting only exists because there isn't a technical way to render it impossible, and if only there were such a mechanism, it would be done away with as something undesirable. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2014-05-28 02:04:02 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Link appears to have been taken down to my reference material, but bounties were around 60-70% if I remember right, I'll look through the 2014 fanfest economy video at home tonight if I get time to check if they put the 2013-2014 graph up at any point showing the same dataset, and what numbers that had.

The FF2014 presentation put them just over the 50% mark (where they've always been), and again, that was for all bounties. I can't remember ever seeing any kind of breakdown based on activity or area of space for the various sinks.

It's been guestimated that the bounty contribution from missions is ~2–3× the agent reward+bonus number, which would make it responsible for ~⅓ of the bounties. Maybe it's that estimate you're remembering: that non-mission bounties should be somewhere in the region of 60–70% of the bounty total?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#40 - 2014-05-28 02:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Bounties are down from the previous year then, or things are up.
The break down came from one of the CCP Devs posting some data in the German forum about NPC kills, Null was responsible for either 76% of the kills in the game, or 76% of the bounties. If it was kills it's actually a larger portion of the bounties. Again, not the most up to date information. But the most recent distribution information we have. Bounty contribution from missions is very hard to estimate since we don't know the ratio of blitzers to completionists on the lvl 4's, nor how much of the over all mission ratio they are, since blitzers would totally throw out that estimation if they are any significant portion. (And given blitzing for LP is the commonly used lvl 4 income figure thrown around, we should assume they are at least a significant portion if not the majority, since otherwise the income figure is wrong as an average instead).


Either way, Null is certainly contributing quite a significant portion of the isk faucets in the game, and more than High sec for sure. WH space was second with NPC sell orders on the previous years data, does that still hold true?