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Yet Another Naga vs Rokh Thread

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SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-05-27 23:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Miles Bright wrote:


As I tried to explain in the OP I struggled to fit all 8 railguns onto the Rokh, where as the smaller Naga could easily fit all 8 without a power manager. and (all defence aside) the Naga seems to fair better than the Rokh when they should be the same in theory.

Make sense?



Nothing about comparing a single stat, in a vacuum absent all other stats, really "makes sense".

Yes, the naga has a larger percentage of its grid left over after fitting a full rack of 425s* and, yeah, all else being equal it does more gun DPS than a Rokh since it gets a +5% damage per level that the Rokh lacks. If all you care about is EFT-warrioring max DPS then, yep, the Naga is going to win that fight.

There is no, "They should be the same in theory." I'm not sure which "theory" you're citing but it isn't anything that actually applies to Eve.

Quote:
Also, what the hell are you doing to the poor Rokh if you can't get a full rack of 425s on it?! Ugh


I'm guessing bad support skills and probably rushed battleships.

*Of course, that doesn't really matter that much because the amount of grid that non-gun mods consume on these respective ships is wildly different. A T2 MWD on a Naga will eat 15% of its total base grid (max skills), while a 100mn MWD on a Rokh will eat 7.3% of its grid. An LSE II on a naga? 11.3%. On a Rokh? 0.67%.

TL;DR: Meaningless comparisons are meaningless.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2014-05-28 00:09:05 UTC
Vulture is superior to them both if you can stomach the cost, the stats are pretty crazy on it.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#23 - 2014-05-28 01:28:40 UTC
Heh. I still think of that topic everytime. "CCP please don't call your new ship the 'Naga'"... it was great.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-05-28 06:21:22 UTC
I favor the Rokh because.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-05-28 06:46:43 UTC
Try a XL ASB Blaster ROKH vs. a Blaster Nag
Try tanking a Nag like a Rokh
Try fitting a MJD

Try flying a Nag in 150+ BS gangs.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2014-05-28 06:48:54 UTC
Miles Bright wrote:
This topic has probably been passed around more times than the bible but here we go.

Is the Naga more superior to the Rokh despite being a grade lower?

I've flown both now and to be honest the Rokh is proving more of a burden than a successor.
Here is what I've noticed while using my loadouts.

With the Naga's 95% reduction for large hybrid weapons I can easily equip x8 425mm Compressed Coil guns and have plenty of CPU and Power for a variety of upgrades to enhance my range (both weapon and lock on), tracking speed, movement speed damage and damage control.

Along with this the Naga Locks onto small targets in roughly 5 seconds allowing me to blast away while range is still my ally.

A perfect ship in my eyes is played correctly in any scenario. the lack of a drone bay is perhaps its ONLY let down.

While Playing with the Rokh I had trouble equipping all x8 425mm Compressed Coil guns along with the satisfactory add-ons to match the Naga and include the famous tanking abilities. (I ended up with x6 or x7 coil guns)

Along to its Negative points it takes a whooping 20-25 seconds to lock onto smaller ships and proves to slow for my conventional Naga tactics for staying at range effectively.

I'm often finding myself sitting there tanking while my drones pick off the smaller ships because the Rokh is to slow to lock and move.

I have tried the blaster variant which has proved better than compressed coil guns, but still struggles against the faster ships. and I do fear will struggle with its slow speed at perusing larger vessels.

I feel like i'm flying an obese punching bag rather than a ship

Does anyone have any tips on how to bring out better use in my Rokh or does anyone agree with my facts?
It could be that i'm a crap player or I could be right, let us know =)

P.s, Rant Over, Thanks for reading

Edit: Unlike all the other threads I don't want to see "It can tank, take more damage etc etc etc" I want to know what way is the battleship more offensive than the battlecruiser, because at the moment it seems inferior.

Again, I already know it can take more hits, I said that when I called the rokh a punching bag.


The Rokh can do things the Naga can't. Like hold a battlefield.

If you bring a naga fleet to take on a similar-sized rokh fleet, the Naga fleet can almost certainly escape, but if there's an objective (eg defend or take a POS) then the Rokhs will hand the Nags their ass on a platter.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#27 - 2014-05-28 06:58:18 UTC
As for fittings, maybe update your EFT because the Rokh got a nice PG boost a while ago and it can fit a rack of T2 450mm rails with ease. Here's a pretty cookie cutter Rokh fleet fit template that doesn't even need AWU 5 except if you want to dual-prop it (MWD + MJD) in which case, yeah you'll need to drop a MFS or the Sig Amp for a Power Diagnostic.

There's enough fitting space for variations like dropping an invuln for a medium cap booster without coming close to exceeding your fittings budget.


[Rokh, Fleet]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Signal Amplifier II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Miles Bright
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-05-28 07:33:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Also, what the hell are you doing to the poor Rokh if you can't get a full rack of 425s on it?! Ugh


I dunno, i even placed them on first and it only allowed x7 to be online.
I've had to use a power manager, something the naga didnt need o.O

Thats whats confusing me.
Reiisha
#29 - 2014-05-28 08:22:03 UTC
Miles Bright wrote:
This topic has probably been passed around more times than the bible but here we go.

Is the Naga more superior to the Rokh despite being a grade lower?

I've flown both now and to be honest the Rokh is proving more of a burden than a successor.
Here is what I've noticed while using my loadouts.

With the Naga's 95% reduction for large hybrid weapons I can easily equip x8 425mm Compressed Coil guns and have plenty of CPU and Power for a variety of upgrades to enhance my range (both weapon and lock on), tracking speed, movement speed damage and damage control.

Along with this the Naga Locks onto small targets in roughly 5 seconds allowing me to blast away while range is still my ally.

A perfect ship in my eyes is played correctly in any scenario. the lack of a drone bay is perhaps its ONLY let down.

While Playing with the Rokh I had trouble equipping all x8 425mm Compressed Coil guns along with the satisfactory add-ons to match the Naga and include the famous tanking abilities. (I ended up with x6 or x7 coil guns)

Along to its Negative points it takes a whooping 20-25 seconds to lock onto smaller ships and proves to slow for my conventional Naga tactics for staying at range effectively.

I'm often finding myself sitting there tanking while my drones pick off the smaller ships because the Rokh is to slow to lock and move.

I have tried the blaster variant which has proved better than compressed coil guns, but still struggles against the faster ships. and I do fear will struggle with its slow speed at perusing larger vessels.

I feel like i'm flying an obese punching bag rather than a ship

Does anyone have any tips on how to bring out better use in my Rokh or does anyone agree with my facts?
It could be that i'm a crap player or I could be right, let us know =)

P.s, Rant Over, Thanks for reading

Edit: Unlike all the other threads I don't want to see "It can tank, take more damage etc etc etc" I want to know what way is the battleship more offensive than the battlecruiser, because at the moment it seems inferior.

Again, I already know it can take more hits, I said that when I called the rokh a punching bag.


1) You need to train up skills like engineering, electronics and advanced weapon upgrades to fully appreciate any ship. Seeing as you're one month old you don't really have the skills to fly a battleship or even a battlecruiser effectively yet - Just because you can fly it doesn't mean you can fly it well. This cannot be stressed enough.

A lot of newer players make the mistake of rushing to battleships without really having any support skills, or ignoring them alltogether. That, and battleships/battlecruisers are just a cog in the grand scheme, not an end goal. I'd strongly advise that you stick to frigates or cruisers for a bit untill you get those support skills at level 3 or 4 at least. Also, don't stick to missions - Find a corp and get your feet wet in PvP while it's still cheap to lose ships and clones! :)

2) The advantage of the Rokh lies in it's HP. Otherwise, both ships are sniper ships - They either kill in one or two volleys from 150+km or they warp off to find another engagement. Both ships also find their biggest strength in tech 2 railguns, because of Spike ammo. The Rokh also has more support options with simply having more slots available.

3) This discussion belong in Ships & Modules.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-05-28 08:45:50 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
I favor the Rokh because.

/thread.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#31 - 2014-05-28 08:57:19 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
I favor the Rokh because.

/thread.

Let's not forget ROKH MAN!.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2014-05-28 09:02:23 UTC
Miles Bright wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Also, what the hell are you doing to the poor Rokh if you can't get a full rack of 425s on it?! Ugh


I dunno, i even placed them on first and it only allowed x7 to be online.
I've had to use a power manager, something the naga didnt need o.O

Thats whats confusing me.


I recommend that you train the Advanced Weapon Upgrades skill as soon as possible. It reduces the power grid requirements of all weapons by 2% per level. That doesn't sound like much but it will open a world of fitting options to you.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#33 - 2014-05-28 09:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ka'Narlist
Miles Bright wrote:

While Playing with the Rokh I had trouble equipping all x8 425mm Compressed Coil guns along with the satisfactory add-ons to match the Naga and include the famous tanking abilities. (I ended up with x6 or x7 coil guns)

Thats no problem of the Rokh but of your awfull skills.

Eve is not like other games. That you are able to sit in a bigger ship doesn't automatically mean you should.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-05-28 09:44:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
I favor the Rokh because.

/thread.

Let's not forget ROKH MAN!.

ROHK MAN!

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-05-28 14:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Miles Bright wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Also, what the hell are you doing to the poor Rokh if you can't get a full rack of 425s on it?! Ugh


I dunno, i even placed them on first and it only allowed x7 to be online.
I've had to use a power manager, something the naga didnt need o.O

Thats whats confusing me.


As others have noted, that's because you don't actually have the support skills to fly a battleship yet. Once upon a time new players were commonly advised to avoid rushing for battleships for precisely that reason. I see this advice given far less frequently now, but it's still pretty true. Power Grid Management 5 and Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 free up plenty of overhead after guns.

As an aside, if you can't fit a full rack of guns, and you don't want to wait until you actually have the supports to fly a battleship, consider stepping down one size and fitting a full rack that way. 8x 350mm rails will do more DPS than 7x 425s. You will give up some range, but you'll pick up a bit of tracking, so your applied DPS may be slightly better or slightly worse, depending on the situation and what you're shooting at.


Also, it sounds like you're probably trying to fit your ships in game. Don't do that. Download some offline fitting tool like EFT or Pyfa so you can assemble a hypothetical fitting out of game first. These will also let you adjust the relevant skills so you can see the impact skills like AWU will have on your ability to fit a ship.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Sven Inneson
Heathen Foray
#36 - 2014-05-28 15:18:02 UTC
Miles Bright wrote:

Along to its Negative points it takes a whooping 20-25 seconds to lock onto smaller ships and proves to slow for my conventional Naga tactics for staying at range effectively.


Isn't it sort of ridiculous that a battleship suffers a penalty to locking smaller ships even though it is a bigger more advanced class of ship? I agree that large guns should suffer tracking penalties to smaller signatures, but increasing lock time as well is absurd intentional gimping just to allow for David vs. Goliath scenarios where David has the advantage.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#37 - 2014-05-28 15:28:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Miles Bright wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Also, what the hell are you doing to the poor Rokh if you can't get a full rack of 425s on it?! Ugh


I dunno, i even placed them on first and it only allowed x7 to be online.
I've had to use a power manager, something the naga didnt need o.O

Thats whats confusing me.


I recommend that you train the Advanced Weapon Upgrades skill as soon as possible. It reduces the power grid requirements of all weapons by 2% per level. That doesn't sound like much but it will open a world of fitting options to you.

This, this a thousand times.
Get that skill done asap.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#38 - 2014-05-28 15:42:47 UTC
Sven Inneson wrote:
Miles Bright wrote:

Along to its Negative points it takes a whooping 20-25 seconds to lock onto smaller ships and proves to slow for my conventional Naga tactics for staying at range effectively.


Isn't it sort of ridiculous that a battleship suffers a penalty to locking smaller ships even though it is a bigger more advanced class of ship? I agree that large guns should suffer tracking penalties to smaller signatures, but increasing lock time as well is absurd intentional gimping just to allow for David vs. Goliath scenarios where David has the advantage.



Where the hell did you get "more advanced"? There's nothing that makes a battleship inherently more advanced than any other T1 hull class. Hell my Astero can warp cloaked, can your battleship do that? Who's more advanced now?

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler
Mattpat139 Sukarala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-05-28 15:50:17 UTC
To me it's quite simple The Rohk is a brawler... load up some asb goodness a couple of invuls... damage/tracking mods in the lows. the Naga is a kiter relies on speed and is sqrewed the moment it's hit by anything bigger than a frigate. they are simply two ships in different classes and are clearly intended for different roles in combat.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5376912#post5376912
Sven Inneson
Heathen Foray
#40 - 2014-05-28 16:00:16 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:
Sven Inneson wrote:
Miles Bright wrote:

Along to its Negative points it takes a whooping 20-25 seconds to lock onto smaller ships and proves to slow for my conventional Naga tactics for staying at range effectively.


Isn't it sort of ridiculous that a battleship suffers a penalty to locking smaller ships even though it is a bigger more advanced class of ship? I agree that large guns should suffer tracking penalties to smaller signatures, but increasing lock time as well is absurd intentional gimping just to allow for David vs. Goliath scenarios where David has the advantage.



Where the hell did you get "more advanced"? There's nothing that makes a battleship inherently more advanced than any other T1 hull class. Hell my Astero can warp cloaked, can your battleship do that? Who's more advanced now?


More advanced in that it takes more skill points to pilot one and the pilot must first learn how to pilot frigates/destroyers/cruisers/battle-cruisers.. It makes no sense that a Frigate can have a built in ability to target anything extremely quick, but something that has "battle" in its ship class name can't lock onto a frigate quickly without making sacrifices... The tiny godmode tracking computer built into a frigate can't be put somewhere in a battleship? It makes no sense IRL, but of course there's the catch, there's more of an emphasis on perceived balance than making things vaguely realistic.
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