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Ewar drones - "Gecko" them

Author
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#21 - 2014-05-28 15:20:34 UTC
Just to be clear since there seems to be some confusion: effects from web drones and the like are indeed subject to stacking penalties and this is indeed a big part of what makes them worthless right now.
Dave Stark
#22 - 2014-05-28 17:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones.


Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right?


doesn't matter. when my moa only has 15m3 of drone bay, if ewar drones were a minimum of 25m3 i wouldn't be using them anyway.

when ships are unable to use the thing you've just 'improved' it defeats the point of improving it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-05-28 17:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Well, if you can think of a better way to get them usable and get around the stacking which cripples them - I'm all ears.

Quite seriously - because I think fixing stacking just for these would be a horrible recode.

Also, my vagabond can use an ogre, I can't use a gecko. I fail to see the main issue to be honest but I suppose if it kept you happy to be able to use the 3 webbers or painters - a new drone could be introduced which is upscaled.


Edit: I don't pretend my solution is perfect - just seems the most likely way we will see change to these without fundamental overhauls of a) drones and b) stacking on these specific ones. That seems like something it'd be foolish to bank on happening any time soon. This I would expect to be a fairly simple property change, on the other hand I've been wrong before Smile
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#24 - 2014-05-28 17:59:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones.


Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right?


doesn't matter. when my moa only has 15m3 of drone bay, if ewar drones were a minimum of 25m3 i wouldn't be using them anyway.

when ships are unable to use the thing you've just 'improved' it defeats the point of improving it.


I understand the objection, but why not do something odd like make a "light" web drone something like 15m^3, a medium 30m^3, and a heavy 50m^3?

The numbers can be jiggled around a bit to be made to work. At least having fewer, stronger effects out of the same bandwidth would get around the crippling stacking penalties as they currently stand.
Dave Stark
#25 - 2014-05-29 07:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones.


Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right?


doesn't matter. when my moa only has 15m3 of drone bay, if ewar drones were a minimum of 25m3 i wouldn't be using them anyway.

when ships are unable to use the thing you've just 'improved' it defeats the point of improving it.


I understand the objection, but why not do something odd like make a "light" web drone something like 15m^3, a medium 30m^3, and a heavy 50m^3?

The numbers can be jiggled around a bit to be made to work. At least having fewer, stronger effects out of the same bandwidth would get around the crippling stacking penalties as they currently stand.


because what about ships with 10m3 drone bay?

you see why this idea simply doesn't work; you either exclude ships from using the drones all together, or you introduce smaller more watered down variants and... oh we're right back in the situation we started with.

i'm not saying it's a bad idea; i like it. however, it simply won't work.
Battle BV Master
Bacon Never Dies
#26 - 2014-05-29 08:37:37 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
because what about ships with 10m3 drone bay?

you see why this idea simply doesn't work; you either exclude ships from using the drones all together, or you introduce smaller more watered down variants and... oh we're right back in the situation we started with.

i'm not saying it's a bad idea; i like it. however, it simply won't work.


Well you can't put a DC on a freigther or Cruise Launchers on your Orca or a 100MN MWD on your Punisher.

This game is based on, and is completely fine with the idea that not every ship can do everything.

So instead of screaming we all have to be able to do it, accept that thats not EVE and thats how almost nothing works in this game.

Instead turn it into an argument to fly a ship with more bandwidth, besides there aren't many ships that have the silly 10 or 15m3 anyways (it should be none or 25m3 if you ask me but oh well)
Ix Method
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-05-29 08:56:38 UTC
Why would anyone be using three Damp drones in the first place?

Travelling at the speed of love.

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#28 - 2014-05-29 09:10:13 UTC
There is also a limit to the number of EWAR (not ECM!) modules which can be applied to the same target which, IIRC, is six. This is why you don't see anything more than triple-web triple-TP lokis in C5 escalations.

This is also, coincidentally, why EWAR drones blow goat peen. If you assign multiple TP drones to a target it caps out at 6 drones, which works out to be only slightly more of a sig radius boost to the target than a single TP. This then means you may as well have added a midslot TP and kept your DPS drones and ganked the dude faster.

Truthfully, the pproblem with EWAR drones could indeed be slightly reduced by this idea, which has loads of merit, and could also be solved by giving these drones....
- more optimal!
- more speed, esp for webbers!
- more EHP!
- 25% more oomph
- T2 variants
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-05-29 09:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Dave Stark wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones.


Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right?


doesn't matter. when my moa only has 15m3 of drone bay, if ewar drones were a minimum of 25m3 i wouldn't be using them anyway.

when ships are unable to use the thing you've just 'improved' it defeats the point of improving it.


I understand the objection, but why not do something odd like make a "light" web drone something like 15m^3, a medium 30m^3, and a heavy 50m^3?

The numbers can be jiggled around a bit to be made to work. At least having fewer, stronger effects out of the same bandwidth would get around the crippling stacking penalties as they currently stand.


because what about ships with 10m3 drone bay?

you see why this idea simply doesn't work; you either exclude ships from using the drones all together, or you introduce smaller more watered down variants and... oh we're right back in the situation we started with.

i'm not saying it's a bad idea; i like it. however, it simply won't work.


Well there is precendent of removing abilities from ships - for example the Gila losing sentries.

Keep in mind whilst it wont work for some ships - but if no-one is using them now - is anything of value lost?

Perhaps CCP would be good enough to look at and fire some stats our way?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#30 - 2014-05-29 18:20:48 UTC
This is a good idea.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2014-06-05 09:01:47 UTC
Anyone else have any feedback/ways to improve viability? This board moves quite fast Smile
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#32 - 2014-06-05 09:08:48 UTC
It would help a lot if EWAR-drones, launched by a certain pilot, wouldn't build up stacking penalties against each other, but against other sets of drones.

So, 5 light webbing drones web you to 70% instead of 84%. Two sets of light webbing drones web you to 60% instead of 82%. Three sets to 55% etc.

A little bit of tight rescaling and using EWAR-drones would be viable at all.
IceAero
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-06-05 15:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: IceAero
So, here's a thought!

(Since I really like your idea)

But, instead of 5x'ing the drones, just double them so that you only need to previously have been able to fly 2 drones to field 1 EWar:

1) Adjust the bandwidth of EWar drones to force people to use ONE OR TWO where they previously used 2, 3, 4, or 5. (e.g., 10, 20, 50 mbit)

2) (OPTIONAL) Adjust the 'size' relationship between damage drones and EWar drones to make them about 2x bigger (10, 20, 50 m3)

3) SAME HP (so they are weak) but adjust the effectiveness like this:

SUGGESTION

2 New light drones should be buffed to the strength of 5 old lights drones without stacking.

2 New medium drones should be buffed to the strength of 5 old medium drones without stacking.

2 New heavy drones, well, they should be about as powerful as 5 heavy drones without stacking, unless this is too much.

The desired result is this: EWar drones get buffed. And, to compensate, fewer of them are fielded and thus are easier to kill.

EXAMPLES

NEW (OLD) [old total (5 drones) --> new total (2 drones)]

Webbing Drones (Max Velocity Bonus)
Light: -12.5% (-5%) [-13.4% --> -22%]
Medium: -22% (-10%) [-25.5% --> -41%]
Heavy: -45% (-20%) [-45.9% --> -67%] (max -80% with 6 drones)

TP Drones (Signature radius bonus)
Light: 10% (4%) [11.8 --> 19.5%]
Medium: 20% (8%) [24.57%--> 40.8%]
Heavy: 33% (20%) [69.3% --> 71.2%] (max 130% with 6 drones)
(A T1 TP is 25%, so TP drones were already powerful)

Vamp Drones (no stacking bonus here!) (All cycles are 6seconds)
Light: 13 GJ (5 GJ) [26 GJ]
Medium: 25GJ (10 GJ) [50 GJ]
Heavy: 65 (25 GJ) [130 GJ]

SD Drones (Targeting range bonus)
Light: -18% (-8%) [-20.8 --> -34%]
Medium: -25% (-12%) [-30% --> -47% ]
Heavy: -35% (-25%) [-54.4% --> -54.7%] (max -68% with 6 drones) (again, gotta be careful with this one)


(Someone needs to figure out how much to increase the strength to keep things the same with ECM drones.)


EDIT: Fixing the math.
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