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Odd market order behavior. Requesting explanation.

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Croutx
UNKN0WN ENTITY
#1 - 2014-05-27 04:37:11 UTC
So I was looking up the Jita Market for Geckos.

I found a sell order for ONE gecko at a price about 200,000isk below the next sell order. I decide to buy this order. To my surprise, the sell order for the gecko still exists and at ONE quantity. So i buy it again and immediately refresh the market browser and find the order is still there at ONE quantity.

The following screenshots are my next attempts to buy out the sell order:
http://i.imgur.com/vzS4Zcx.png
http://i.imgur.com/RItGybw.png
http://i.imgur.com/B06QK6f.png

Screenshot of the transaction log with the sellers' name. Notice the seller client changes and time stamps.
http://i.imgur.com/K4PJ43n.jpg

What I also noticed is that the timer on the order continues to countdown even though different sellers are involved.

Also to note, I tried to buy two geckos on that sell order. The command to buy two geckos fails and only one is purchased.


So my question is, is this working as intended? If so, I would like an explanation of how this market order at one quantity refreshes itself instantly and also manages to change seller clients without resetting the order times
Alex555
CHaoS Heavy Industries
#2 - 2014-05-27 05:11:06 UTC
at some low volotile stock exchanges officials hire automatic market makers.
so there are always enough buy/sell orders
Croutx
UNKN0WN ENTITY
#3 - 2014-05-27 05:47:57 UTC
Alex555 wrote:
at some low volotile stock exchanges officials hire automatic market makers.
so there are always enough buy/sell orders


So are you suggesting it's a bot or that someone is instantly updating the market order as I purchase it? I also thought re-listing the sell order would reset the timer on the order as well.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#4 - 2014-05-27 06:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
Alex555 wrote:
at some low volotile stock exchanges officials hire automatic market makers.
so there are always enough buy/sell orders


CCP have said the only market they interfere with is PLEX.

This is almost certainly a bug, it'll probably be fixed after the next downtime.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3670400#post3670400

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Alex555
CHaoS Heavy Industries
#5 - 2014-05-27 09:03:36 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:


CCP have said the only market they interfere with is PLEX.



I would seriously doubt that
Regardless what CCP have ever said.

Market activity has diminished dramatically in some categories. Therefore it is quite adequate solution to introduce "market makers" for some items.

Just for the reason to keep liquidity alive.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#6 - 2014-05-27 10:04:15 UTC
Alex555 wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:


CCP have said the only market they interfere with is PLEX.



I would seriously doubt that
Regardless what CCP have ever said.

Market activity has diminished dramatically in some categories. Therefore it is quite adequate solution to introduce "market makers" for some items.

Just for the reason to keep liquidity alive.


What items are those? Why would CCP care about trader's ISK? Did you see what just happened with freighter rigs? Some speculators lost a lot of ISK. When they changed exploration, lots of people holding T2 salvage or rigs lost a ton of money overnight too.

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2014-05-27 11:39:54 UTC
Actually, what's probably happening is that there's an expired order.

They don't actually stop existing immediately, so you can continue to buy from them, even when they're no longer displaying.

So you're not buying from the order you think you are. You're buying from another, cheaper, order, which is no longer displaying.

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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#8 - 2014-05-27 12:39:20 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Actually, what's probably happening is that there's an expired order.

They don't actually stop existing immediately, so you can continue to buy from them, even when they're no longer displaying.

So you're not buying from the order you think you are. You're buying from another, cheaper, order, which is no longer displaying.

This.

...and normal service should be resumed after downtime.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#9 - 2014-05-27 12:54:13 UTC
Are you sure you are ordered primarily by price? It seems odd to me that there would be such a scale of price over those item then (and not now) and that every order has only 1 quantity. I'd say that looks more like you are ordered by quantity then by price, so while you are buying from that order there's a cheaper one getting fulfilled in the same station.

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Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#10 - 2014-05-27 15:22:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Are you sure you are ordered primarily by price? It seems odd to me that there would be such a scale of price over those item then (and not now) and that every order has only 1 quantity. I'd say that looks more like you are ordered by quantity then by price, so while you are buying from that order there's a cheaper one getting fulfilled in the same station.



This.

Those sell orders don't resemble the actual market in Jita

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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2014-05-27 21:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
The default market ordering always seems to be wrong to me. I always make sure to click several times on the price column header to cycle through the various sort options, and leave them at buy = highest on top, sell = lowest on top, regardless of range.
Slothook
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-05-27 22:11:30 UTC
He's 100% got it sorted by quantity - as opposed to price (you can see the small triangle indicator right of quantity which shows its sorted by quant, sort by price and this then disappears - try it)

No bot, no ghost transaction - click your price column until it sorts by cheapest price first - arrow up (on the market details tab which gives you all the prices / locations, quantities etc - physically click the word price in the price column two or three times, you will then hopefully see what we mean)

Don't worry, without going into all the details, you probably only paid 100k over their actual sell price at the time - and they crept up in price already so u haven't lost out financially - could have been a lot worse, seen players loose millions by not having their columns properly sorted
Charlie Nonoke
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#13 - 2014-05-30 11:21:25 UTC
100% not sorted by quantity.
This has happened to me too, and any serious well minded trader does not sort by quantity rather than price.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#14 - 2014-05-30 11:34:33 UTC
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
100% not sorted by quantity.
This has happened to me too, and any serious well minded trader does not sort by quantity rather than price.



Look at the image, it's clearly sorted by quantity.
Claire Voyant
#15 - 2014-05-30 22:04:05 UTC
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
100% not sorted by quantity.
This has happened to me too, and any serious well minded trader does not sort by quantity rather than price.

The sort order is determined by the first column with an arrow and then moves to the columns to the right. In this case it is sorted by distance, then quantity, and then price. If it was sorted by price first, then the first two columns would not have arrows showing. Try it for yourself and see.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#16 - 2014-05-31 08:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Claire Voyant wrote:
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
100% not sorted by quantity.
This has happened to me too, and any serious well minded trader does not sort by quantity rather than price.

The sort order is determined by the first column with an arrow and then moves to the columns to the right. In this case it is sorted by distance, then quantity, and then price. If it was sorted by price first, then the first two columns would not have arrows showing. Try it for yourself and see.

Claire is correct (no huge surprise there). Charlie, I don't know why you believe that you've sorted the orders by price, but the picture tells a different story.

Steve Ronuken is referring to the (well-known among traders) market peculiarity where the order browser (what you're looking at) uses a view which excludes orders which have exceeded their expiration date, while the broker (which does the actual trade) uses a view that shows all qualifying orders. The broker's view is (apparently) updated by some downtime process to remove expired orders. So there exists a small window of time (less than 24 hours) where an order expired today and is excluded from the order browser but is still a candidate for the broker.

Steve, can you check with the devs to confirm that this weirdness is documented somewhere so that it may be fixed someday when someone mucks with the broker code?

MDD