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We seriously need to chill out a little...

Author
Benilopax
Colonial Industries
Reckless Contingency.
#1 - 2011-11-17 10:51:29 UTC
Dear Forum Warriors,   TL:DR at bottom.

I'm in slight disbelief that some of you have decided to build up the rage again over the next patch. 

I was angry as the next player at what happened with incarna, I unsubbed both of my accounts, temporarily, shortly afterwards, tho I had found myself bored of eve in general probably due to under development.

But let's look at some back ground. I take one Devs comments as an example. I'll find the quote and add it in shortly but to paraphrase he said he stopped looking at the forums because of the rage at lack of development while feeling trapped in the corporate direction of Incarna etc. Put simply, these people are human beings, I think we forget that CCP is not some monolithic organisation. They are talented individuals, heck I couldn't do what they do and I wish I had learnt to do it so I could do, and we sometimes, quite frankly treat them like dirt. 

Post incarna, the management went through phases, denial, anger, crisis, acceptance, it was just financially motivated tho that was a big part of it. But by the time they had turned the big super tanker around it was September. Then lay offs followed Devs lost friends and colleagues, a lot of them. That's hard.

Then the race to fix things began, Devs said from the out set we are going for little things, there wasn't time for big changes, they wanted as many small things as possible. In every dev blog including the hybrid and custom office thread they have said this is a first step we will change anything that doesn't work right it's an ongoing process. 

And yet, you don't like it so you rage at CCP, say EVE is dying , and threaten to unsub. 

These guys are going to start hating us if we continue to be so up tight. 

What I propose to you is that we treat Crucible as a first step and we give CCP a full development run to fix the rest, 0.0, hybrids, FW, lowsec, any other priorities. One scrum team or more each, 6 months. This brings us to summer, exactly one year after the Jita riots. If your game is still broken and Not improved to your satisfaction by all means rage, shout, riot, unsub whatever eases your tortured soul. 

What say you?

TL:DR 

You can't expect miracles overnight, give CCP one more expansion to fix the game. Stop raging, keep calm and carry on.

...

Vachir Khan
Rugged Ruff and Ready
#2 - 2011-11-17 10:54:20 UTC
:18 months:
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-11-17 11:18:27 UTC
Benilopax wrote:
What say you?

don't care if CCP employees hate me.
Benilopax
Colonial Industries
Reckless Contingency.
#4 - 2011-11-17 11:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Benilopax
Ok, 18 months sure, but stuff is being worked on now. And has been for 3 months so far, development takes time to develop.

...

The Offerer
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-11-17 11:21:05 UTC
I always tried to post constructive and (as much as possible) flame-free criticisms. Something that would actually explain what is good and what is wrong with suggested ideas and features. I agree, there are many who were not so patient and cool-headed. Rage and flames were inevitable.

Anyway, there are many features in Crucible that are simply great. I can already feel the power and creativity of the old CCP from back in the days when I started to play (RMR). There are, however, a couple of things that will have a bad impact on the game, most notably corporation owned Customs Offices and I tried to explain why in the relevant thread.

So, there are a lot of hits and just a couple of misses, as far as features go. Just like CCP in the old days when EVE was expanding rapidly - and hopefully, it will again if CCP keeps this course.

I understand that they are just people, but the company was on a wrong route for a long time threatening to endanger the existence of their only active product. Many players saw that, so a little slap on the face to wake up was needed. Thankfully, CCP's CEO woke the company up just in time.

I have very high hopes for Crucible and beyond. EVE is not dying - a part of it died due to all mistakes in the past and Crucible is bringing the game up from the ashes. That's how I see Crucible.
Benilopax
Colonial Industries
Reckless Contingency.
#6 - 2011-11-17 11:23:24 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Benilopax wrote:
What say you?

don't care if CCP employees hate me.


But angry posts turn them off the community and so constructive suggestions get lost.

...

Benilopax
Colonial Industries
Reckless Contingency.
#7 - 2011-11-17 11:27:47 UTC
The Offerer wrote:
I always tried to post constructive and (as much as possible) flame-free criticisms. Something that would actually explain what is good and what is wrong with suggested ideas and features. I agree, there are many who were not so patient and cool-headed. Rage and flames were inevitable.

Anyway, there are many features in Crucible that are simply great. I can already feel the power and creativity of the old CCP from back in the days when I started to play (RMR). There are, however, a couple of things that will have a bad impact on the game, most notably corporation owned Customs Offices and I tried to explain why in the relevant thread.

So, there are a lot of hits and just a couple of misses, as far as features go. Just like CCP in the old days when EVE was expanding rapidly - and hopefully, it will again if CCP keeps this course.

I understand that they are just people, but the company was on a wrong route for a long time threatening to endanger the existence of their only active product. Many players saw that, so a little slap on the face to wake up was needed. Thankfully, CCP's CEO woke the company up just in time.

I have very high hopes for Crucible and beyond. EVE is not dying - a part of it died due to all mistakes in the past and Crucible is bringing the game up from the ashes. That's how I see Crucible.


Thanks The Offerer, I agree that the company is at fault, but individual Devs are not, of anything blame management for overall failures in strategy.

...

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#8 - 2011-11-17 11:28:15 UTC
@Benilopax,

I agree with your sentiments. You must know though that no matter how good a product is, no matter how well it is accepted, there will always be people who will kick and shout and rage about the smallest of errors. They will always find something to satiate their innate hunger for anger and depression. Some people simply love to hate.

As far as I am concerned and from what I have experienced on Sisi, CCP have done themselves proud with Crucible.

Peace out.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-11-17 11:30:12 UTC
Benilopax wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Benilopax wrote:
What say you?

don't care if CCP employees hate me.


But angry posts turn them off the community and so constructive suggestions get lost.


Angry posts and unsubbing made them do a 180 degree turn. The game is improving because of the critics. Don't forget that very important fact.

I like then new direction they are taking the game, but the community is responsible for it.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Commander Spurty
#10 - 2011-11-17 11:39:44 UTC
Op is saying that when bad things were the track we were on, your rage was righteous.

We're currently on a 'good' track of new unique ships, trails and cyno effects (plus so many more neat things polished to the level we want them at) and now, the rage is without merit.

Sending confusing messages to CCP after they have come around, is something you really won't do without being called out by your peers.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Zleon Leigh
#11 - 2011-11-17 11:50:16 UTC
While on the fast track to turn things around they are implementing without thinking.

POCO's are screwing a lot of players over and run a real risk of causing a lot of economy grief.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

Benilopax
Colonial Industries
Reckless Contingency.
#12 - 2011-11-17 11:54:50 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Op is saying that when bad things were the track we were on, your rage was righteous.

We're currently on a 'good' track of new unique ships, trails and cyno effects (plus so many more neat things polished to the level we want them at) and now, the rage is without merit.

Sending confusing messages to CCP after they have come around, is something you really won't do without being called out by your peers.




This

When Hilmar apologised and new features were announced the attitude and quality of posts had never been higher. Now CCP do what we asked we are still not satisfied?

Did we expect them to go without sleep for 3 months and fix the whole game?

...

DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#13 - 2011-11-17 12:02:24 UTC
Oh please, there are like 3 people in total complaining about Crucible.
Zleon Leigh
#14 - 2011-11-17 12:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zleon Leigh
lols They've gone for years not fixing a lot. So, no, I don't think anyone had real expectations with them fixing the game. Hell, fixing two things correctly might be considered a miracle given the history.

As far as improvements - kudos to the art dept on the improved view in space. I actually felt I was in space when I flew on Sisi the other day.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

Perramas
DreddNaut
#15 - 2011-11-17 12:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Perramas
I will not chill out just because CCP is starting to do the job they should have been doing the last two ******* years.

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people- Eleanor Roosevelt

Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#16 - 2011-11-17 12:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciar Meara
Moooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrh NAOW! Evil

No, seriously what this guy said:

DarkAegix wrote:
Oh please, there are like 3 people in total complaining about Crucible.


And those three people have their grubby hands all over their titan/supercarrier like crybabies.

edit: One crybaby who doesn't like putting effort in making cash in eve (see under here)

I do so hate it when CCP gives us more sandbox and less top down gameplay. (note: sarcasm)

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

pussnheels
Viziam
#17 - 2011-11-17 12:16:57 UTC
Zleon Leigh wrote:
While on the fast track to turn things around they are implementing without thinking.

POCO's are screwing a lot of players over and run a real risk of causing a lot of economy grief.

that is the understatement of the day , i am furious about POCO, because low sec pi is one of my main sources of income for my industrial acount
89 pages of feedback overwhelming majority saying it is a stupid idea and a concept that will NEVER work and what does CCP do they jusy ignoring us and implement POCO s

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

pussnheels
Viziam
#18 - 2011-11-17 12:17:20 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Oh please, there are like 3 people in total complaining about Crucible.

make that 4

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
#19 - 2011-11-17 12:28:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Imryn Xaran
CCP Greyscale made the following comments in his Dev Blog feedback thread:

“Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)”

I am not singling him out, but he has raised several very good points that I would like to address.

1. The player community will never provide uniformly reasoned responses. For every reasoned response there will be 50 unreasonable responses. Almost every single post made here is motivated by selfish concerns, self interest, ego, and spite. The number of posts where the poster is attempting to provide honest feedback and is able to maintain separation from their own narrow view of the game is miniscule. In this regard the EVE forum community is no different to any other.

2. CCP takes the unusual position (at least in the game development world) of engaging with their customers in a meaningful manner. Nowhere else will a game developer give their customers such an honest and open view of the workings of the game they are playing. I believe this stance is a consequence of CCP's (justifiable) pride in what they have built here, but it does have a downside. When talking to the community CCP devs don't have anywhere to hide. The community expects and demands specificity in their statements, and can't be fobbed off with generalisations and BS.

3. The kind of relationship CCP has built with their customers is hard work to maintain - especially when things are not going well. Nobody likes to be criticised, and some of the comments that have been leveled at CCP devs go way beyond just criticism, BUT it is unrealistic to expect the community to change. In order to maintain the relationship CCP need to keep posting, despite the criticism. In EVE terms they need to HTFU.

Again, I would like to state that I am not singling CCP Greyscale out here - he just happens to be the guy that has been open and honest enough to post about what is, I am sure, a very common attitude amongst CCP employees.

TL:DR CCP need to HTFU and never stop posting
who shat themselves
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-11-17 12:31:15 UTC
Crucible is a great expansion and if you sperglords can't handle that GET OUT
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