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Dynamic L4 Missions.

Author
Blitz Apollo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-05-26 13:57:03 UTC
Hey folks,

Been thinking about this a bit recently and was looking for people's opinions on the idea of dynamic scaling L4's.

What I mean by this is the ability to increase the damage, increase the rewards and most importantly promote a teamwork ethic into L4's.

Currently, if you have 5 people running an L4, nothing changes. What would, in my humble opinion be very nice to see is the scaling of all mentioned above.

So for instance, for every player that joins, the damage done by each NPC ship rises 10% and bounties rise by 20%.

Those values are obviously very open to change, it was just a rough guide. The most important thing these changes would promote is teamwork.

It would add a very unique slant on L4's whilst also adding unique roles. With the extra damage, it would take extra co-ordination with triggers whilst also most probably adding the need for a Logistic's pilot. The cap would of course not be 5, you could still bring a while fleet into the site and of course it would have to be ensured that one person couldn't claim the bounties meant for 5.

Would be cool to get some feedback on this.

Cheers,

BA
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-05-26 14:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
You'll get mixed responses on this, PvP oriented folks hate the idea of devtime being spent on improving missions, PvE folks would greatly welcome any change. Personally i like the idea of fully randomizing missions and throwing in the odd sansha style AI npc's to improve missions. Escalating the number of npc's makes sense on one hand but is open to exploit by having an alt warp in to multiply the npc's then warping off.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2014-05-26 14:31:21 UTC
Exploits:
a shield tanked kronos can tank level 4's let alone an armour tanked one. the way i'd exploit this is put a marauder into the mission along side 3-4 cloaked/inty alts. the 40% dps is nothing to my marauder, and these rats are just as easy to kill. so i get 80% more bounties for no extra work. \o/

The other way i'd exploit this is scan down someone i dont like then warp 20 cloakies/inties into their mission and triple the dps. then loot their shiny wreck.


Alternative
u want to promote teamplay? increase the difficulty but keep the bounties the same. they can earn extra isk by focusing fire and completing missions faster. An alternative to simple rat dps is more rat 'logi' and/or stronger active tanks. the idea is already there with repair stations in one mission and some incursion sites have 'logi'. This would mean a big drop in rewards/hour if ur solo and makes calling primary targets important.

Did u know: that the active tank nature of rats means that if u get two ppl to focus fire onto a rat it will die in less than half the time, and therefore there is already incentive to mission in groups and work efficiently together?


Issue
Level 4's are already high reward low risk. They don't need more rewards, if anything they need less rewards and more risk.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Captain Finklestein
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-05-26 14:46:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Finklestein
I take the position that PVE in MMO games will always be boring, at least after a short amount of time. What is exciting however is playing and competing against other players and pushing game engines and mechanics to the limits.

As such I am a proponent that the PVE should in fact be two things:
1) simple, easy and relaxing when you're left alone
2) relentlessly viscous and epic when you are not

What you do with what you earn from PVE is what should be exciting. What happens as you engage in the sandbox beside other players is what should be exicting.

Mining isn't fun. Missions aren't really fun. Being chased in a web-warping freighter and getting away with your haul can be. Calling your buddies in to blob the small gang that caught your mining fleet can be. Somehow fighting off that Sentinal who's invaded your mission pocket can be.

Group PVE is a different story; it should be as exciting without hostiles around. I would support adding group PVE or more specifically, adding to the current incursion system. Even then though it becomes all about the ISK eventually. You'll find incursion FCs do everything in their power to increase completion time and overall ease. That is why if they were to improve this form of group PVE, it should be by increasing interaction with other competing incursion fleets.

This isn't a -1, but rather a, "do not replace my L4s with anything more complex but ultimately as boring".

It's just more financially viable for me.

w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#5 - 2014-05-26 14:52:34 UTC
Not sure if this idea would help anyone other than self entertainment. For challenge try different fits. Instead of hiding at range try brawling. Try a fleet of frigate size ships. You got 5 people and still in high sec missions? Go do a level 5 already. It is like saying having 10 people to do level 1 security missions is too easy please change the game... You might be confusing missions as instances in other MMOs

Is that my two cents or yours?

Blitz Apollo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-05-26 15:01:38 UTC
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:
Not sure if this idea would help anyone other than self entertainment. For challenge try different fits. Instead of hiding at range try brawling. Try a fleet of frigate size ships. You got 5 people and still in high sec missions? Go do a level 5 already. It is like saying having 10 people to do level 1 security missions is too easy please change the game... You might be confusing missions as instances in other MMOs


But of course Sir, anything that isn't to you liking, or isn't risky enough for you must be shot down. Please take the elitist attitude elsewhere, not everyone has access to L5's.

Thanks everyone else for the comment so far, it just an idea aimed at making L4's variable. This is by no means a definitive idea or structure, hence the asking for comments.
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#7 - 2014-05-26 15:10:30 UTC
Sorry just a common topic, did not like the variables, but decent idea.

Is that my two cents or yours?

Blitz Apollo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-05-26 15:17:09 UTC
Possibly because its a popular idea. I didn't realise it had been posted recently, but I know it's something a lot of people are hoping CCP implement sometime, I do admit however though it has to be balanced well and contribute to L4's.
Adunh Slavy
#9 - 2014-05-26 15:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
I don't like it, it would be too easy to exploit.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2014-05-26 15:53:19 UTC
Blitz Apollo wrote:
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:
Not sure if this idea would help anyone other than self entertainment. For challenge try different fits. Instead of hiding at range try brawling. Try a fleet of frigate size ships. You got 5 people and still in high sec missions? Go do a level 5 already. It is like saying having 10 people to do level 1 security missions is too easy please change the game... You might be confusing missions as instances in other MMOs


But of course Sir, anything that isn't to you liking, or isn't risky enough for you must be shot down. Please take the elitist attitude elsewhere, not everyone has access to L5's.

Thanks everyone else for the comment so far, it just an idea aimed at making L4's variable. This is by no means a definitive idea or structure, hence the asking for comments.


Missions are solo PVE, Incursions and upper class WH sites are group PVE. The escalation mechanism already exists in C5 and C6 sites, why not try them for teamwork experience?

Blitz Apollo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-05-26 15:59:27 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Blitz Apollo wrote:
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:
Not sure if this idea would help anyone other than self entertainment. For challenge try different fits. Instead of hiding at range try brawling. Try a fleet of frigate size ships. You got 5 people and still in high sec missions? Go do a level 5 already. It is like saying having 10 people to do level 1 security missions is too easy please change the game... You might be confusing missions as instances in other MMOs


But of course Sir, anything that isn't to you liking, or isn't risky enough for you must be shot down. Please take the elitist attitude elsewhere, not everyone has access to L5's.

Thanks everyone else for the comment so far, it just an idea aimed at making L4's variable. This is by no means a definitive idea or structure, hence the asking for comments.


Missions are solo PVE, Incursions and upper class WH sites are group PVE. The escalation mechanism already exists in C5 and C6 sites, why not try them for teamwork experience?



Again, as much as I appreciate the point you are making, not everyone has access to WH's or Incursions, of even the time to be part of them. Changing L4's isn't going to change the shape of the empire, just give casual players a chance to test their skills.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#12 - 2014-05-26 16:35:31 UTC
Someone will figure out how to run it solo, or it will be done by multiboxing. The result will not be what you intend.

Also, missions in general need a complete overhaul. Better to focus on upgrading the entire system rather then adding a new gimmick to the top layer.
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2014-05-26 16:43:53 UTC
Blitz Apollo wrote:

Again, as much as I appreciate the point you are making, not everyone has access to WH's or Incursions, of even the time to be part of them. Changing L4's isn't going to change the shape of the empire, just give casual players a chance to test their skills.


What do you mean by "no access"? There's tons of wh corps recruiting all the time (ours included), and you don't even need to be in a player corp to participate in Incursions.

Test skills? Surely PVE isn't the mechanism for that.
Blitz Apollo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-05-26 16:50:43 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Blitz Apollo wrote:

Again, as much as I appreciate the point you are making, not everyone has access to WH's or Incursions, of even the time to be part of them. Changing L4's isn't going to change the shape of the empire, just give casual players a chance to test their skills.


What do you mean by "no access"? There's tons of wh corps recruiting all the time (ours included), and you don't even need to be in a player corp to participate in Incursions.

Test skills? Surely PVE isn't the mechanism for that.


Not everyone wants to live in WH space. What I am proposing isn't game changing, it's just a little shake up to a system that needs looking at in general. If doesn't affect you, so why all the negativity?

PvE is a choice, if I wish to test my skills in it I shall. Just because it isn't PvP doesn't make it skill-less.
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#15 - 2014-05-26 16:57:58 UTC
I'm not being negative, just wondering what you see as obstacles for trying out the already existing and challenging team-based PVE.

Your suggestion would indeed affect everyone in the game in the form of increased missioning rewards, which already are too high for hisec- a lucrative area for botters, multiboxers and others exploiting the low-risk, high-reward AFK revenue streams.

Due to it's scripted nature and dumb AI, PVE doesn't put skills to test in the same fashion as PVP does. PVP is more unpredictable, forcing a higher level of player involvement instead of following walk-through guides.

Missions are a very complicated thing in a sand-box game, essentially forming a closed system inside EVE. I'm afraid the changes required to make it fit better into this game aren't the ones you might be looking for.
Blitz Apollo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-05-26 17:03:11 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
I'm not being negative, just wondering what you see as obstacles for trying out the already existing and challenging team-based PVE.

Your suggestion would indeed affect everyone in the game in the form of increased missioning rewards, which already are too high for hisec- a lucrative area for botters, multiboxers and others exploiting the low-risk, high-reward AFK revenue streams.

Due to it's scripted nature and dumb AI, PVE doesn't put skills to test in the same fashion as PVP does. PVP is more unpredictable, forcing a higher level of player involvement instead of following walk-through guides.

Missions are a very complicated thing in a sand-box game, essentially forming a closed system inside EVE. I'm afraid the changes required to make it fit better into this game aren't the ones you might be looking for.


It wouldn't affect everyone in the game, as only a percentage of the player base missions. Incursions are the high end earners, L4's are not. Yes they are lucrative, but only with extensive training, real know how and the ability to cheery pick the missions.

Whether or not this is the correct way to move forward with L4's, they do need a re-design and a definite lean towards team based rewards.

Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#17 - 2014-05-26 17:13:31 UTC
Economy is universal, though. Increasing hisec rewards is currently not an option, as balance of input and output has to be maintained.

You'll also find that a considerable portion of mission-runners prefer solo "content" to co-operation, as it may involve a degree of social interaction.

Blitz Apollo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-05-26 17:15:07 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
You'll also find that a considerable portion of mission-runners prefer solo "content" to co-operation, as it may involve a degree of social interaction.



And so goes back to the original idea that if they want to run it alone, they can. Just if they choose to work as a team, they get rewarded.
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2014-05-26 17:22:22 UTC
Which again goes back to the fact that if they wanted to work as a team, they'd move from L4s to the existing, more rewarding team PVE.

Blitz Apollo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-05-26 17:25:02 UTC
But not everybody wants to run Incursions. Not everybody has the time. Not everybody wants to live in a WH and PvP for their home defence.

Think of the bigger picture, please.
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