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Supers Can't Disappear
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#81 - 2014-05-28 15:36:58 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gee... if you owned a 100b isk asset that no longer despawned in space and needed 24/7 protection. What direction do you think you'll move in game?

Option A: To a large alliance that has many such assets and is well suited to protect these assets wtih cyno jammed systems, spy detection services, supercap reimbursement funds, rapid response pings, and more.

Option B: Somewhere else?

Player behavior is not that hard to predict.

If you want to address hotdrop mechanics... then address that specific mechanic.
If you want to address consolidation of power blocks... then address the Sov Systems.
If you want to address the (ab)use of supers... then address the issue that makes them scale so well: Remote Repair.

This idea has as much merit as solving world hunger by feeding people their own children.

Option A: Why are you assuming that bigger is always better?
If you want to address blob warfare, and leverage amassed by player groups going beyond the scope of balance, then address power bloc regulations.

Option B: Why not?
The assumption this change would happen in a vacuum assumes a lot. The concept that such ships should require at minimum sov holding with POS presence, does not seem unreasonable.
The expectation that only larger alliances could offer this seems unfounded.

Player behavior is a contradiction for prediction, unless you adhere to the concept: Expect the unexpected.

As for that last comparison, it seems as much impassioned as irrelevant, being the straw man that it is.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#82 - 2014-05-28 15:41:02 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Also, why do we want to kill "logged off supers"? I don't understand that mentality at all.

To address this, I would respond:
Are they intended for unsupported operation?

If they are parked in a POS, how is it they will be killed, unless the POS is first defeated?

Doesn't this rather, force them into a role defined by player cooperation, rather than individual control?

These are questions, for which I feel you have implied answers exist.
I wish to scrutinize these answers for a solid foundation, rather than far reaching assumptions.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#83 - 2014-05-28 15:41:13 UTC

Here's another question for those you like this proposal:

When aspects of supers do we dislike:

1.) Hotdrop mechanics to move an unscoutable fleet instantly and directly onto a target is pretty annoying. I'd claim this mechanic could use a balancing pass.

2.) When a fleet of supers are amassed into a single fleet, their combined firepower, together with EWAR immunity and insane tanks is pretty devastating. Supcap fleets are often very ineffective in against such adversaries, and it really imbalances Sov engagements that focus on destroying enormous EHP structures.

In my personal experience, lone supers, especially when belonging to smaller organizations, are GREAT targets. Why would we want to discourage this demographic of supers?

test tube bunny
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2014-05-28 15:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: test tube bunny
+1 for this idea


You want to get rid of supers from the game...This will do it!

That or every titan/super pilot in the game will have their very own corp. hmm which will happen first? mass die off or mass corp production...



Also can we add another idea to this.... Supers should be able to jump while in a POS shield, they should have to leave the POS shield to jump out of a system. This will definitely add another solid spike into the chest of all super pilots!
BugraT WarheaD
#85 - 2014-05-28 15:52:42 UTC
OP i gave you a +1 :D
IceAero
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2014-05-28 15:56:56 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
IceAero wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
IceAero wrote:

Third, there exits, always, the problem of what happens if you leave the game for a long period of time. And this MUST be addressed and I believe it is also where the core of your idea must have a limit. And I believe a SAFE-LOG OFF mechanic must exist, but you won't have it everywhere. So, this proposed super-pos-docking module I discussed above, could, with SOV 5 or something like this, enable you to anchor a super specifically for the purpose of a safe-log-off. This would start a timer on the super (which, should be, I think, LONGER than the reinforced timer, by a small amount), after which running down would cause the ship to disappear from space until the player logs back in. Oh, and if the POS is destroyed while your ship is away, maybe it would warp back in off-grid? I dunno, just not fair to be able to put down an enemy POS which prevents you from logging back in without warping to an enemy POS.

Thoughts? I don't own a super, so maybe this is all crazy-talk. But maybe it's the best idea ever?


Are you serious?

Now, not only do the large, well established alliances offer better protections for supers. They now get to provide their supers with a despawning mechanic to permanently make their ships safe.

On the other hand, any other entity that doesn't have Sov 5 must keep their supers in space 100% of the time because the "safe log off" mechanic isn't even available to them?

Do you not understand how ridiculously biased your mechanic is?


No no, you're totally correct!

The mechanic should be available to just about everyone, but maybe not in low sec? So, don't make it based on SOV level, but the POS might still need to be designated as a log-off pos. I was just getting at the point that the safe-log-off mechanic shouldn't be available at any POS...or maybe it should? (Provided it had the correct module).


Why should it not be available in Lowsec? You do know that PL spent a large portion of their history while a supercap superpower living in lowsec and not bothering with "holding sov"?

Also, the proposed changes make any smaller entity owning a super in nullsec extremely dangerous. Any of the superpowers could RF its POS, bubble wrap it (so the owner can't cyno/warp away), and hell camp it during the entire RF cycle. Hell camps have been performed on even the largest entities in nullsec, so what chance would a small entity have of protecting their supers from such an onslaught?

Also, why do we want to kill "logged off supers"? I don't understand that mentality at all.


I think the OP wants to make supers a less transitory element of the game and restrict the ability of a single player, un-aided, to safely remove them from space (practically) immediately and wherever they want.

And I like this idea. Make them retreat to a specific POS and start a timer if they want to disappear for good.

I could see this being in low-sec as well, because you might be right about needing to maintain safe supers in low sec. I'm not sure. I certainly like the idea for Forcing a corp/alliance to have at least one system to keep their super safe in, but you're also correct in that this makes for a HUGE target that would, again, bias towards the larger blocs.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#87 - 2014-05-28 15:58:25 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

To address this, I would respond:
Are they intended for unsupported operation?


Supers usually require support. Individually, they are very susceptible to subcaps already.

Nikk Narrel wrote:

If they are parked in a POS, how is it they will be killed, unless the POS is first defeated?


A POS can be destroyed, easily, within 2 days. Have you ever gone two days without playing this game? Most normal people often have RL engagements that limits their playtime to reasonable hours.

Furthermore, a POS can by bypassed: You can bump a ship out of a POS. There are ALWAYS members of a corp that can offline and/or take things from a POS (CEO, Directors, anyone with config starbase, and those with take roles).

Nikk Narrel wrote:

Doesn't this rather, force them into a role defined by player cooperation, rather than individual control?


What is wrong with individual control? They are often bought and paid for by an individual and already difficult and dangerous to manage. Why would we want to force them into a role defined by player corporations?


In the end, this is a pretty daft proposition (as is). I've said my part, and we all know that CCP would never implement this terrible idea.
IceAero
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2014-05-28 16:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: IceAero
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


A POS can be destroyed, easily, within 2 days. Have you ever gone two days without playing this game? Most normal people often have RL engagements that limits their playtime to reasonable hours.

Furthermore, a POS can by bypassed: You can bump a ship out of a POS. There are ALWAYS members of a corp that can offline and/or take things from a POS (CEO, Directors, anyone with config starbase, and those with take roles).

In the end, this is a pretty daft proposition (as is). I've said my part, and we all know that CCP would never implement this terrible idea.


Did my ideas not address both of these points?

First, you wouldn't lose the ability to safely log your ship out, just be forced to do it at a specific POS and with a timer.

If you're going to forward deploy your supers, then you're taking a risk. You either need to protect the POS where you stuck them, retreat them to POS where they can be safely logged off, or somehow make that POS enable them to safely log off after a timer and invite everyone to attack that POS in the meantime to prevent you from having a protected location to bring them back to.

And you don't have problem with bumping if they can be anchored. And you can prevent anyone but yourself from unanchored them AND prevent from POS from being offlined while supers are anchored until after a 24 hour timer to add a layer of protection from rogue actors in the corp. (OR at least SOME mechanism must be possible to prevent someone from simply opening the POS at whim to let all the supers be taken or destroyed)
Anthar Thebess
#89 - 2014-05-28 16:11:28 UTC
Check ( in signature) idea about increasing jump fuel usage based on the model size.
So Super carrier burns more fuel than a carrier, and titan use even more than Super carrier.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
IceAero
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2014-05-28 16:21:29 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
[
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Doesn't this rather, force them into a role defined by player cooperation, rather than individual control?


What is wrong with individual control? They are often bought and paid for by an individual and already difficult and dangerous to manage. Why would we want to force them into a role defined by player corporations?



Who says this is? It's just forcing an individual to maintain a POS where they can stick their super. If they want to go solo, that's fine, but they gotta have a POS to stay safe. And if they join a corp, then they are going to have the same situation.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#91 - 2014-05-28 16:28:56 UTC
IceAero wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
[
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Doesn't this rather, force them into a role defined by player cooperation, rather than individual control?


What is wrong with individual control? They are often bought and paid for by an individual and already difficult and dangerous to manage. Why would we want to force them into a role defined by player corporations?



Who says this is? It's just forcing an individual to maintain a POS where they can stick their super. If they want to go solo, that's fine, but they gotta have a POS to stay safe. And if they join a corp, then they are going to have the same situation.


Most of the super pilots I know (especially titan pilots), already maintain a POS so they can safely log in and operate their super.

What this suggestion does, is make protecting that POS 100% mandatory or they will lose their super. Furthermore, since the POS RF timer is less than 2 days, protecting that POS is a MAJOR commitment.
IceAero
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2014-05-28 16:40:04 UTC  |  Edited by: IceAero
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
IceAero wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
[
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Doesn't this rather, force them into a role defined by player cooperation, rather than individual control?


What is wrong with individual control? They are often bought and paid for by an individual and already difficult and dangerous to manage. Why would we want to force them into a role defined by player corporations?



Who says this is? It's just forcing an individual to maintain a POS where they can stick their super. If they want to go solo, that's fine, but they gotta have a POS to stay safe. And if they join a corp, then they are going to have the same situation.


Most of the super pilots I know (especially titan pilots), already maintain a POS so they can safely log in and operate their super.

What this suggestion does, is make protecting that POS 100% mandatory or they will lose their super. Furthermore, since the POS RF timer is less than 2 days, protecting that POS is a MAJOR commitment.


You have to protect it now, or else when you log back in the POS won't be there.

With OP's idea (and my introduction of a log-off timer). You get the following:

If you're going to be logging back in with 2 days, then everyone sees your super sitting there, but you're safe so long as you're back before the RF timer is up.

If you're not going to be there for 2+ days, then you start a, for example, 24 hour timer to log-off your titan. Everyone can see that you're doing this, and it invites them to attack the POS. IF they blow it up, you don't lose your titan, you just gotta be careful about logging back in.

Basically, you can't hide your active supers.

Is this really different than how people operate their titans at POSs currently? Under OPs idea you just are no longer safe logging off in space. (and remember you can set your emergency warp location to the POS)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#93 - 2014-05-28 19:02:50 UTC
Wouldn't it be interesting, to keep these mega-boats in the game, but allow them to mount a cloak that remained active after they logged out?

To consider a proposal that the ship must be vulnerable, it should also be considered how to protect it so as to mitigate this risk.

It could be a burdensome thing, with 100% speed reduction, and full denial of off grid sensor use.
(Compared to the regular cloak that doesn't remain active offline, but allows active sensor use otherwise)

Maybe even something that fit into a rig slot, and only became active while the ship was 'off-line'.

The idea being, the ship would have a small chance of being located, and captured. Depending on how well it was hidden, the odds of winning some lottery might be higher.

Just a thought.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#94 - 2014-05-29 10:17:36 UTC
IceAero wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


A POS can be destroyed, easily, within 2 days. Have you ever gone two days without playing this game? Most normal people often have RL engagements that limits their playtime to reasonable hours.

Furthermore, a POS can by bypassed: You can bump a ship out of a POS. There are ALWAYS members of a corp that can offline and/or take things from a POS (CEO, Directors, anyone with config starbase, and those with take roles).

In the end, this is a pretty daft proposition (as is). I've said my part, and we all know that CCP would never implement this terrible idea.


Did my ideas not address both of these points?

First, you wouldn't lose the ability to safely log your ship out, just be forced to do it at a specific POS and with a timer.

If you're going to forward deploy your supers, then you're taking a risk. You either need to protect the POS where you stuck them, retreat them to POS where they can be safely logged off, or somehow make that POS enable them to safely log off after a timer and invite everyone to attack that POS in the meantime to prevent you from having a protected location to bring them back to.

And you don't have problem with bumping if they can be anchored. And you can prevent anyone but yourself from unanchored them AND prevent from POS from being offlined while supers are anchored until after a 24 hour timer to add a layer of protection from rogue actors in the corp. (OR at least SOME mechanism must be possible to prevent someone from simply opening the POS at whim to let all the supers be taken or destroyed)

Why? If you have awox in your corp with these kinds of rights, sucks for you. HTFU?
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#95 - 2014-05-29 11:18:39 UTC
Anya Dyonas wrote:
The basic premise here will center around the idea that Supercarriers and Titans should not disappear when the pilot logs off.

Now, that you are angry and confused, hear me out on this.

Supers and Titans cannot dock, through the theory that 'they are too big to dock'. The intent of the game designers was that this vessel should always be in-play. It is so valuable, and so special, that you should have to work to keep it. However, this mechanic was easily bypassed by the creation of Log-off Alts. And, fair enough. I would do the same as a super capital pilot. Store your vessel in a place that is infinitely safe and secure forever. But, therein lies the problem. This is the complete opposite of the design intent. Rather than being the most vulnerable of vessels, they are the LEAST vulnerable of all vessels. They only EXIST when the pilot is reasonably certain of security and victory. Otherwise, they are hidden in oblivion, safe and secure forever.

The game has a POS module designed specifically for storing supers and titans. This was intended to give the pilots a real place to dump their supers when they are not in use, rather than relying on Log-off Alts. Obviously, this a far less secure way to store the vessel, so it's use has been extremely limited.

With the suggestion from the devs that 'all things should be destructible', then that surely includes stations built by players in Sov space. When those stations blow up, surely everything within them will also be permanently destroyed. It seems unfair that all of the assets of a non-super pilot could be lost forever while super pilots have their most valuable assets stored in an invincible and invisible location.

So, the solution is to have all supers and titans forever 'in-play'. That means they never disappear from space. You can store them in the previously mentioned POS module to keep they from prying eyes and in the safety of a POS RF timer, but logging off with them in-space will simply result in the vessel staying right there, in space, idle.

I know most super pilots will scream 'shinanigans' at this suggestion. Heck, you probably would never have trained or bought the vessel if you didn't know you could secure it via Log-off Alt when you don't want to play with it. And, that is a fair reaction. Such a change of game mechanic would definitely be pulling the rug out from under you. However, this should be the price of having a super capital ship. It should be a chore. It should be a burden. It is not a weapon. It is a SUPER weapon. Thus is should come with extra burden and responsibility to own.

Now, hear me out on the applications in alliance wars, and think of the impact it could have. Suddenly, you cannot just invade a region of null and have these giant armies of supers on a whim. You need to work out the logistics for front-line POS structures to house your army of supers. That army of supers is vulnerable AFTER the battle, when you would otherwise just log them off.

Your supers are always vulnerable, but so are your enemy's. That means if an ally back-stabs you, then you can hit them where it hurts later, getting proper revenge.

Having the supers always in-play will change the commitment and investment of attacking with supers, and the logistics of defending space that houses supers. It will raise questions like "Is it worth the burden to involve the supers in this fight/campaign?" It will push the consequences of people's actions in the game to a new level of possibilities, which is exactly the 'sand box environment' eve is based on.


I don't see this proposal demanding that cheap sub-caps / capitals remain in play when their pilots logoffski without engagement timers.

So to hell with RIfters online.Get out.

-1

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Wedge Rancer
The Rogue Space Force
#96 - 2014-05-29 11:19:56 UTC
+1
IceAero
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-05-29 13:19:24 UTC
Maybe a slightly more plausible implementation of the general idea, without introducing any new POS mechanics, is to have supers only disappear when logged off inside a force-field?
Anthar Thebess
#98 - 2014-05-29 13:34:34 UTC
IceAero wrote:
Maybe a slightly more plausible implementation of the general idea, without introducing any new POS mechanics, is to have supers only disappear when logged off inside a force-field?


I think all those recent ideas are because supers are bit abused lately by big power blocks.
But current CSM will not allow to change it.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#99 - 2014-05-29 13:35:02 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
I don't see this proposal demanding that cheap sub-caps / capitals remain in play when their pilots logoffski without engagement timers.

So to hell with RIfters online.Get out.

-1

I miss seeing you in the forums more often, Miss Asuka.

I agree, there should be a balancing aspect that says not just these supers and titans get locked online, but all ships.

Give those outposts and cloaks some real value, and make searching for sleepers mean more than just the NPCs...

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#100 - 2014-05-29 13:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Juan Thang
This is a good idea, far more supers are in play than ccp ever intended, they need to be more vulnerable.

Also with stations being destructable there needs to be less supers so you dont get super blobs roaming and blowing up stations left right and centre.