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Autocannons have the worst projection now.
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Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-05-22 03:54:34 UTC
When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.

♞
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#2 - 2014-05-22 04:06:03 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.


Who cares
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#3 - 2014-05-22 04:10:59 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.


Yep known fact. Even though minny ships are touted as being the quintessential kiting ships, they have in fact only 1 maybe 2 ships that can actually engage past 20+K.

Pretty sad. I spoke with Fozzie and Rise about this at fanfest 2014, however they told me at the round table that they think autos are in a fine place, and are not going to be subject to any new changes.
Blodhgarm Dethahal
8 Sins of Man
Stray Dogs.
#4 - 2014-05-22 05:00:42 UTC
Better tracking than lasers, capless, selectable damage, and (pretty sure) blasters are still the worst when it comes to projection
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#5 - 2014-05-22 05:00:45 UTC
So you can't use your short ranged weapons to blap people at long range.

Swap to Arties then. Then you get to blap all the things!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#6 - 2014-05-22 06:42:08 UTC
It's funny how most replies show an alarming lack of understanding. Yes, AC (and arty for that matter) are now easily the worst at projecting dps. Everything else got buffed (weapons and ships), projectiles and Minnie ships stayed the same. Result is that right now they're not at all good at kiting regardless of the projectile weapon type. The old "Minnie for PVP" has turned into "uuuhm, some ships are still good... I think".
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#7 - 2014-05-22 06:56:25 UTC
The fact that ACs used to have great projection as well as the fastest ships is what made them broken in the first place. ACs still have better projection than blasters, as well as all the other properties that made them great (low fitting, selectable damage type, capless). Pulses have always had the best projection of the short range guns so thats no surprise. Overall projectiles are definitely less powerful than they once were, but saying theyre horrible is an exaggeration.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#8 - 2014-05-22 07:20:40 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
The fact that ACs used to have great projection as well as the fastest ships is what made them broken in the first place. ACs still have better projection than blasters, as well as all the other properties that made them great (low fitting, selectable damage type, capless). Pulses have always had the best projection of the short range guns so thats no surprise. Overall projectiles are definitely less powerful than they once were, but saying theyre horrible is an exaggeration.


They do not have better projection than lasers, not even slightly, and while they might have better projection than blasters (duh) rails got buffed to being almost overpowered. Right now the WORST race to choose for kiting of any kind is Minnie, just because there's 1 or 2 ships that can still make it work doesn't mean that they're ok on the whole.

Go and try make a frigate using projectiles that does 100 dps @~20km (a feat easily done by lasers and hybrids), you'll find that it won't work without going silly.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-05-22 07:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus.

♞
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#10 - 2014-05-22 08:49:36 UTC
Medium ACs are pretty much the worst weapon system in the game now, relegating falloff bonused Minmatar hulls to being, well, **** frankly.

This isn't really news its just every ****** with an opinion thinks its 2007 and Vagas are still OP somehow so its never getting fixed.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#11 - 2014-05-22 08:56:14 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus.


its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ?
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-05-22 08:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
Tauranon wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus.


its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ?



I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day

and so can throaxes and
so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns...
That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op.

Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond.

♞
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#13 - 2014-05-22 09:54:14 UTC
When a nag pounds more damage into another capital than a moros with ~15% more paper damage, I blame selectable damagetype ♥
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#14 - 2014-05-22 09:59:51 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:

I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day

and so can throaxes [...]

so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns...
That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op.

Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond.


This is just wrong. A NOmen without a CB runs it's stuff for about a minute and a half max. A Thorax only activates his invuln if it's being shot at due to low capacitor - and a railrax needs a CB to stay up and running. Literally every other T1 cruiser needs a cap booster for a prolonged engagement.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-05-22 10:23:23 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Medium ACs are pretty much the worst weapon system in the game now, relegating falloff bonused Minmatar hulls to being, well, **** frankly.


I see someone hasn't fired a heavy missile.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#16 - 2014-05-22 10:24:30 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus.


its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ?



I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day

and so can throaxes and
so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns...
That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op.

Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond.


Stop lying.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-05-22 10:39:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
Not talking about the Nag, that has such insane tank that it could do half the dps it does now and would be the dread of choice.

Not talking about the Vaga, that has insane class/built in bonuses that make the best point range kiter in the game.

I'm talking about literally every other ship in the game that uses autocannons.

Hell, in pve heavy missiles still have the "sacrificing dps for being able to project against any ship at all applicable ranges" trade off. Autocannons just suck at everything.

♞
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-05-22 11:14:16 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.


Was there a AC nerf or is it " I'm upset AC aren't the same as other turrets" day? I know some aren't happy Minmatar isn't Winmatar anymore but that had to happen sooner or later. My plain T2 fit Hurricane gets 635 DPS @ 1.7 / 16 km. That's not overloaded, no implants and without drones.

I do agree that they over nerfed tracking enhancers but this is typical CCP. Nerf it till it's garbage so when they "fix" it by giving back half it's usefulness everyone is jumping for joy!
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-05-22 11:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Gregor Parud wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus.


its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ?



I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day

and so can throaxes and
so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns...
That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op.

Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond.


Stop lying.


now who is lying, i have flown all ships but the navy omen. AC r still a pretty neat weapon system. For examply my blaster rax has either 3 minutes or 1minute 20 cap and with cap gone u dont have anything to shoot, ac in my case stabber is still pretty fast, has a better range than a blaster rax and is faster. The only weapon system i see out of balance is the light artilleries currently.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#20 - 2014-05-22 11:34:59 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.


Was there a AC nerf or is it " I'm upset AC aren't the same as other turrets" day? I know some aren't happy Minmatar isn't Winmatar anymore but that had to happen sooner or later. My plain T2 fit Hurricane gets 635 DPS @ 1.7 / 16 km. That's not overloaded, no implants and without drones.

I do agree that they over nerfed tracking enhancers but this is typical CCP. Nerf it till it's garbage so when they "fix" it by giving back half it's usefulness everyone is jumping for joy!



The TE nerf to falloff bonuses (from a while back) hit projectiles hard, and then rebalancing happened pretty much based on people's perception of projectiles (how they were pre TE nerf) rather than actual perormance, and then boosted other weapon systems on top of that.

Right now projectiles ARE under performing because they can't project as well as other weapon systems while lasers and hybrids got buffed (damage, tracking, fitting etc). The only thing that remains is alpha which is funky and all that but that's just one weapon type and just one strategy. Sure, they have no cap use and have damage type selection but that doesn't make up for the lacklustre dps projection.
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