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Loot Scattering removed from Exploration Sites

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probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#41 - 2014-05-20 17:27:13 UTC
Sorry for being trigger-happy with the misquoting and the hyperbole, CCP Affinity.

Sarin Khorta wrote:
3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.


Price elasticity of supply for exploration is a good amount on the inelastic side. As in, even if prices go up, the number of explorers won't go up nearly enough to keep loot prices at a "decent" level.

While on the other hand, the price elasticity of demand for T2 rigs is pretty damn elastic. If T2 rigs prices double, a good chunk of the customer base will just stop buying them.

Which is why you have these people, who built up their fortune around the Odyssey T2 rig popularity bloom, come in whenever this topic is brought up and exaggerate the effects of reduced loot.
Phaezen Outamon
Brotherhood of Wolves
#42 - 2014-05-20 17:49:18 UTC
I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing?
CCP Bayesian
#43 - 2014-05-20 17:56:28 UTC
Phaezen Outamon wrote:
I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing?


Yes. Thanks for the feedback! Smile

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Phaezen Outamon
Brotherhood of Wolves
#44 - 2014-05-20 18:08:12 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Phaezen Outamon wrote:
I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing?


Yes. Thanks for the feedback! Smile


I have also noticed the sites disappear from the probe screen when you finish the first container, not the last one as they previously have.
Canenald
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#45 - 2014-05-20 18:22:13 UTC
As an experienced explorer, I'd say cutting the loot by 20% would equal what was lost by failing to grab the right containers if you knew what you were doing.

Also, no need to balance the market by nerfing exploration because it's not the source of market crash. Look at R&D agents and limited usability of T2 rigs if you are looking for a true cause.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#46 - 2014-05-20 18:24:54 UTC
With Mini Containers gone, I excepted to the EY-1005 hardwiring to get a different bonus. But Cycle Time reduction for Salvage, Hacking and Archaelogy modules is not the one that'll make it into Kronos, I hope? Sounds pre-Odyssey to me Cool

NPE – ISD – RIP
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-05-20 18:25:25 UTC
Sarin Khorta wrote:
I don't yet know enough about exploring, nor market fluxuations, to venture a truly informed viewpoint. However, I am seeing what appears to be an interesting contradiction between the three primary types of responses I've seen in this thread:


1. You have one group of people who will come back simply because they didn't like the *way* they had to do things. Thus, more explorers.

2. You have another group of people who seem to think that reduced loot immediately equals reduced profit. Thus, fewer explorers.

3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.

There is a cognitive dissonance between these viewpoints. I agree that "half" is probably drastic, but perhaps not as drastic as it might seem at first glance. Exploring may well end up being worth about the same overall, but is now worth more *per haul* than it was before, possibly increasing the ISK/hour that explorers receive, making exploration even more attractive. Of course, it may also make exploration hunters more prominent as well...

Food for thought.


I think what you're missing is that the second group of people are mostly thinking of it in terms of loot spew = 90% of the current site loot potential, halved loot tables = 50% of current site loot potential, which is what I thought the first time I heard about it.

But keeping loot tables the same or even close to the same will probably cause a big market crash like after Odyssey because so many more people will be doing exploration. The only way to keep profitability about the same is to decrease loot in inverse proportion to the inflow of people running exploration sites (and also the higher speed in which sites can be done). I don't know what kind of data CCP has available, but I'm guessing that's going to be pretty much impossible to accurately predict at the outset, so I'm guessing there will be a bit of a swing in one direction or the other before corrections set in.

I would also guess that the eventual equilibrium will leave exploration somewhat less profitable than it is now since likability barrier has been lowered so the profitability vs fun/time equation has changed.
Josef Djugashvilis
#48 - 2014-05-20 18:28:12 UTC
Davion Falcon wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
...I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites.


You did the right thing. Nothing of value was lost.


This, a thousand times this Smile

This is not a signature.
Josef Djugashvilis
#49 - 2014-05-20 18:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Whilst I do appreciate that isk per hour is a great motivator, I would much prefer that exploration be an enjoyable, interesting, challenging game experience first with the isk per hour following that.

This is not a signature.
Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit
Southern Legion Alliance
#50 - 2014-05-20 18:36:28 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.

We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.


dont revert the doubled rewards, but make the sites immune to cargo scanner, so players cant pick the cream of the crop but have to work for it by hacking all containers to see what is in them.
Samantha Calderon
Heavenly Forge
#51 - 2014-05-20 18:39:54 UTC
Matias Otero wrote:
I actually appreciated the original intent of the loot spew, what with adding an element of time-sensitive interaction and encouraging group play, but I can't say I will miss them. It was a good idea on paper. In reality I want to hack the damn thing, get what's inside and gtfo before those probes lock in on me.



I agree, looked like a good idea for group exploration, but i have to admit that the concept is very rare in Eve right now.

Wherever I May Roam: Blog sobre EVE Online en castellano!
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#52 - 2014-05-20 18:42:14 UTC
Still can't do scanning. That mini game thing is just too annoying.

Pass.
Guth'Alak
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2014-05-20 18:56:12 UTC
So what would be the incentive for using a cargo scanner after the changes?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#54 - 2014-05-20 18:58:30 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :)


Seriously? You really though to implement a Loot table with 50% reduced loot? Shocked*implied facepalm* You can't seriously have thought about halving the loot, that's ludicrous.

Moreover, have you revisited the Loot table in a way to have less Augmentations and more Symmetries spawn in 00 sec? Augmentations are among the most useless items in the game (possibly only topped by Capital Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II Blueprint... Why do these even drop, if there is absolutely no use for them or similar rigs?

And another thing, which we came up in my alliance today and which, I think at least, also already has been suggested in F&ID: Why do we loot the can after the hacking? Why don't we have stashes scattered over the grid that we need to find to receive loot (possibly in combination with the final core/end point of the grid to gain the loot). Why is it still the same old mechanic of hacking and then grabbing the stuff instead of, facilitated by the hacking game, finding actual loot positions in the grid and then finalize the hack. Why not this or some other interesting or at least different mechanics?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Sophaya Fortelleren
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#55 - 2014-05-20 18:59:53 UTC
Moth Eisig wrote:
Sophaya Fortelleren wrote:
I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face.


The loot distribution would have to be completely random or the failure loot spew would have to contain only a small amount of the full loot for this to be even remotely viable. Otherwise a character with nothing but a rookie ship and basic scanning/hacking skills could head out to null and make hundreds of millions by just failing on purpose and grabbing the valuable loot anyhow.


Yeah good point, and if it was all just worthless loot then nobody would bother picking it up so it wouldn't be very effective at annoying the player.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#56 - 2014-05-20 19:00:52 UTC
Guth'Alak wrote:
So what would be the incentive for using a cargo scanner after the changes?


Grieving. You only grab the can(s) with the best loot and leave the site unfinished to block the respawn for the residents, just as before.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Guth'Alak
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-05-20 19:09:14 UTC
Sophaya Fortelleren wrote:
I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face.


I love this idea and encourage it completely.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#58 - 2014-05-20 19:10:23 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Phaezen Outamon wrote:
I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing?


Yes. Thanks for the feedback! Smile


So is the opening of these cans different from opening the cans in Ghost Sites? In Ghost Sites you can use the Selected Items window to open the can, is this not the case with the normal exploration sites?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Jinn Aideron
#59 - 2014-05-20 19:23:07 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites.

Saddened to see in-place content being cut from the game.


It provides for great exhilaration, however, that exploration rewards are shifted from the competent players, who looted above-average, toward the inept players, who failed.

I'm elated.

Stealth deletes are bad.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#60 - 2014-05-20 19:27:57 UTC
Jinn Aideron wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites.

Saddened to see in-place content being cut from the game.


It provides for great exhilaration, however, that exploration rewards are shifted from the competent players, who looted above-average, toward the inept players, who failed.

I'm elated.


Oh yeah, the competence of looking up online which stuff appears in which container and then just getting lucky.

And **** everyone trying to run COSMOS-sites, they probably deserve random loot vomited into their faces.

Honestly, step back and look at what you just wrote. You really think clicking on random containers careening through space is a sign of competency? Please go outside and enjoy the sun immediately and only play Eve Online again after at least 1-2 hours have passed.