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Can IGS Posts Meet A Minimum Standard of Intellectual Honesty?
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Matar Ronin
#1 - 2014-05-19 17:40:36 UTC
It seems to be quite the fashion here on IGS to speak of “other” people, our fellow humans, as if they are somehow by the very nature of their birth within certain political spheres or ethnic groups somehow lesser then whatever group or category we were either born into or migrated to ourselves.

I would like to put that foolish notion to rest once and for all, humans as a specie are generally equal in capacity on average. There is no legitimate quantifiable empirical data that has ever indicated otherwise.

Certainly political & religious spheres create patterns of social behavior that become readily identifiable with some people raised under their influence, but these are just that, patterns of behavior, not inate genetic destiny or limitations.

I would like to challenge all those who speak here on IGS to meet the minimum standard of intellectual honesty when posting about groups of people that are “other” than themselves, to apply all the rights, privileges, capacity, and humanity they attribute to themselves to the “others” equally. If that standard is met I think it will elevate the overall conversation here on IGS.

The popular and powerful religious, nationalistic, and ethnic chest thumping will have it's place as indicators of our individual patterns of behavior but they will no longer be allowed to masquerade as proven scientific facts.

I will attempt to have my future posts reflect this more intellectually balanced standard and I both invite and challenge you to join me in doing so.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#2 - 2014-05-19 17:53:16 UTC
Speaking of intellectual dishonesty and saying there aren't quantifiable differences in education, intelligence, social standards, culture, wealth and other rather important factors between ethnic, social, cultural and national factions in the same post? Genetics certainly determine a significant portion of your capacity and so does upbringing, training, instilled values etc.

If you really think holding hands around a fire and singing "We Are New Eden!" will ever happen, you need therapy. We all have some standards and views that others will never reach and pretending they're anything else will be detrimental to everyone involved. Factions, ethnicities and nations will never consider each other to be equal. Superior or inferior, sure.

That's what gives people in the cluster something to reach for and those who succeed will be better.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Matar Ronin
#3 - 2014-05-19 18:09:29 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Speaking of intellectual dishonesty and saying there aren't quantifiable differences in education, intelligence, social standards, culture, wealth and other rather important factors between ethnic, social, cultural and national factions in the same post? Genetics certainly determine a significant portion of your capacity and so does upbringing, training, instilled values etc.

If you really think holding hands around a fire and singing "We Are New Eden!" will ever happen, you need therapy. We all have some standards and views that others will never reach and pretending they're anything else will be detrimental to everyone involved. Factions, ethnicities and nations will never consider each other to be equal. Superior or inferior, sure.

That's what gives people in the cluster something to reach for and those who succeed will be better.

Perhaps I was unclear, I am referring to all humans as a single specie. There have been born into every race, religion, and nationality both geniuses and morons. None have a quantifiable legitimate claim that their specific subset has a claim above any other.

The standard allows a more balanced comparison on how some nations are performing in terms of the successfulness of their educational methods or culture when you strip away the bias that comes from viewing them as lesser or betters.

The only hand holding I hope to foster is of intellectual honesty on the IGS amongst we capsuleers, in space we will continue to pod each other as situations dictate to further our individual goals.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#4 - 2014-05-19 18:19:38 UTC
Aren't you the guy who tried to start his own religion here?

**Vherokior **
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2014-05-19 18:38:28 UTC
I don't know... The Caldari do practice Eugenics to a certain degree - but I'm willing to stipulate that the effects of the Tubechild program probably only amount to a few percentage points of difference, given how few Caldari enjoy the benefits of it.

Are you willing to accept that stipulation?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-05-19 18:48:51 UTC
I hold that all races and bloodlines within this cluster are "equal" in that they are all equally deserving of respect, dignity and opportunity to pursue prosperity, liberty and happiness. As collective entities, there is no ethnic group more or less deserving of these things than anyone else.

Any statement beyond that tends to get into the idea that races and bloodlines are biologically equal as well, which simply isn't true.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#7 - 2014-05-19 18:51:29 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Aren't you the guy who tried to start his own religion here?


I do not think that should have any relation to the points brought forth in this thread? I do not understand the need of posters on this forum to always distract from the topics and points raised.


On the topic: I do not believe everyone is equal. But it remains proper social behavior to address all others with decorum and respect regardless, and I believe this is what is most important for the facilitation of intellectually honest discourse.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#8 - 2014-05-19 20:57:26 UTC
Everyone has the capacity to be useful, even if they themselves don't yet see it. To me, that is good enough, as I know regardless of who they are eventually a use will be found for them.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#9 - 2014-05-19 21:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: N'maro Makari
Samira Kernher wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Aren't you the guy who tried to start his own religion here?


I do not think that should have any relation to the points brought forth in this thread? I do not understand the need of posters on this forum to always distract from the topics and points raised.




Call it an irritation with preachers.

**Vherokior **
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#10 - 2014-05-19 21:16:02 UTC
An admirable thing to aspire to. Although kinda naive, ah.

There's little point coming to a discussion venue and asking the entirety of New Eden to change it's cultural bias. Get out into space, start there if you want to change the galaxy. Visit the military academies, the trade hubs, the disputed systems, the schools. Meet with government officials, community leaders.

Here in IGS your intentions will merely become fodder for the very people you despise.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#11 - 2014-05-19 21:23:10 UTC
Can they? Yes.

Will they? I wouldn't count on it.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#12 - 2014-05-19 22:24:55 UTC
Aaaaaaannnd, que Kimmy to tell us why this is wrong and why the Federation must be destroyed.

Then Nappy to do the same....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Matar Ronin
#13 - 2014-05-19 22:35:06 UTC
My sincere thanks to all who accepted either my invitation or challenge! To those who did not ..... well that is the nature of invitations and challenges, you are under no obligation to accept them!

In my opinion your opinion has merit.

I look forward to better communication of ideas and exchanges of perspectives between all those willing to try.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Matar Ronin
#14 - 2014-05-19 22:47:14 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I don't know... The Caldari do practice Eugenics to a certain degree - but I'm willing to stipulate that the effects of the Tubechild program probably only amount to a few percentage points of difference, given how few Caldari enjoy the benefits of it.

Are you willing to accept that stipulation?

As a former Kameira I certainly would not argue against the scientific validity of eugenics to emphasize certain traits. However the only stipulation required would be that eugenics programs are a way to emphasize certain traits and they of course could be implemented by any government who decided for whatever reason good or bad to introduce them into their population.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#15 - 2014-05-20 01:45:24 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I don't know... The Caldari do practice Eugenics to a certain degree - but I'm willing to stipulate that the effects of the Tubechild program probably only amount to a few percentage points of difference, given how few Caldari enjoy the benefits of it.

Are you willing to accept that stipulation?

As a former Kameira I certainly would not argue against the scientific validity of eugenics to emphasize certain traits. However the only stipulation required would be that eugenics programs are a way to emphasize certain traits and they of course could be implemented by any government who decided for whatever reason good or bad to introduce them into their population.


Fair enough.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Chinwe Rhei
Syn Interstellar
#16 - 2014-05-20 04:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Chinwe Rhei
Our cultures arose during tens of thousands of years of isolation on different planets in sometimes radically different environments. And enviroement shapes everything, culture, biology, psychology.

Yes we share a common origin (genetics and archeology suggest), but technically i'm just as distantly related to an Amarrian as i am to my fellow human cousins the Sleeper or the Jove. Are you including them too when you imply that our differences are just politics and opinions ?

No, i suspect they may run much deeper than many people are comfortable thinking about. We'd all like to believe that the Amarrian deficit of humanity and predilection for evil is a consequence of religious indoctrination, but what if it isn't ?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-05-20 06:44:27 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
It seems to be quite the fashion here on IGS to speak of “other” people, our fellow humans, as if they are somehow by the very nature of their birth within certain political spheres or ethnic groups somehow lesser then whatever group or category we were either born into or migrated to ourselves.

I would like to put that foolish notion to rest once and for all, humans as a specie are generally equal in capacity on average. There is no legitimate quantifiable empirical data that has ever indicated otherwise.

Certainly political & religious spheres create patterns of social behavior that become readily identifiable with some people raised under their influence, but these are just that, patterns of behavior, not inate genetic destiny or limitations.

I would like to challenge all those who speak here on IGS to meet the minimum standard of intellectual honesty when posting about groups of people that are “other” than themselves, to apply all the rights, privileges, capacity, and humanity they attribute to themselves to the “others” equally. If that standard is met I think it will elevate the overall conversation here on IGS.

The popular and powerful religious, nationalistic, and ethnic chest thumping will have it's place as indicators of our individual patterns of behavior but they will no longer be allowed to masquerade as proven scientific facts.

I will attempt to have my future posts reflect this more intellectually balanced standard and I both invite and challenge you to join me in doing so.

To be honest, I never met an alive Minmatar before I became a capsuleer. I knew that they exist somewhere, and that they have Minmatar Republic somewhere in the space. But nobody here really cared about them, who they are and what they were doing.
There were some reports about business with minmatar corporation here and there, that's all the information we had.

My opinion about your peoples is a consequence of analysis of behaviour of minmatar people, their abilities, their manners, their honor, their tendencies to keep words and deals, or, more likely, not keeping them. All these actions, all these peoples I met, made my mind about Minmatar people. Most of information was provided by such peoples like Ayallah, Anabella Rella, and so on.

After talks with them, I am pretty sure, that I really don't want to discuss important things with peoples who have "intellect of a Brutor", or "honor of a Sebiestor".

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#18 - 2014-05-20 11:43:30 UTC
As I have explained in lately revealed True Scripture, the Minmatar were not created equal to the Amarr.

The Minmatar were not, as were the Amarr, formed from the primordial Blood, but from the dung of the Fedo. Their land, Pator, was shrouded in darkness and error. They cursed God from the beginning. God never meant them to be anything other than slave labor and material for sacrifice.

Had the Chosen people of God not gone liberal and eaten from the Tree of Mercy, this situation would have persisted forever.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#19 - 2014-05-20 12:11:36 UTC
Unfortunately, this is a place more of rhetoric than honesty, and the sooner you come to realize that the better the plays you will be able to make.
Lucien Marbot
#20 - 2014-05-20 16:57:36 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Aaaaaaannnd, que Kimmy to tell us why this is wrong and why the Federation must be destroyed.

Then Nappy to do the same....

You are a prophet! Both of those bottom feeders showed up in the order you called for. Truly they demonstrates that stupidity is not exclusive to any one racial group.

Death is nothing more then the searing pain of rebirth.
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