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If CCP wants more money then why don't they offer more services?

Author
Marsha Mallow
#121 - 2014-05-23 00:34:04 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
THEN IF you want to argue that skillpoints don't give older players an advantage, fine, but you must admit that buying skillpoints isn't paying to win.

Go buy the highest SP character and pwn us all. Please give daily progress updates.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2014-05-23 00:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
But, you are quite close to what I am saying, and I think you understand it better than most at this stage.


I guess it might be helpful to mention that I once received a piece of paper with Bill Clinton's signature on it that basically said "Hey, Mayhaw, you're a super good reader!". And, what that means practically in terms of this discussion is that you're going to need to up your game to presidential level bull[expletive deleted] or better if you want me to miscomprehend what you are saying.

I'll try using words one more time, but if this doesn't work, know that I WILL draw you a picture:

IF skillpoints are an advantage,
Buying skillpoints is paying to win.

---

ELSE
Buying skillpoints is not paying to win.

. . .

IF you want to argue against paying to win, fine, but you must admit that skillpoints are an advantage.

THEN IF you want to admit that skillpoints are an advantage, you must admit that the game is UNFAIR as it currently is.

---

ELSE IF you want to argue that the game is FAIR as it currently is, fine, but you must argue that skillpoints don't give older players an advantage.

THEN IF you want to argue that skillpoints don't give older players an advantage, fine, but you must admit that buying skillpoints isn't paying to win.

. . .

Now you can go ahead and try to argue about experience and ISK and intelligence levels of various players, etc. being the real advantage, but you're only going to confuse YOURSELF.


Err... I posted more, above, that you should also read. Now, I intended no offence, but I have already addressed the whole "if SP give an advantage" issue. Read it maybe? I have addressed all of this, and I addressed it a second time for your advantage and a third for someone else so no, you are not reading.

Let me clarify again for you. Read it this time. Also, I'm not trying to be hostile, but you are simply not comprehending it, no matter what you claim of your comprehension ability. This isn't intended as hostility or insult, this is merely observation of you missing a point I've repeated, patiently, multiple times.

It's not skillpoints that are the issue, it's one's ability to apply them, via in-game experience.

Buying skillpoints is not paying to win, no, because you can't win EVE anyway. But at best, if SP does nothing then nothing changes and nobody has a reason to accelerate their SP anyway, so what's the point of making a change at all?

If you argue against paying to win, you don't have to admit that skillpoints are an advantage at all because that's not the problem. The problem is experience and application - pay attention now, because this is the key point - vets can apply PLEX-boosted SP with more experience than new players.

And I never said EVE wasn't unfair. It is EVE, after all, but SP are not the determining factor in that. EVE is and has always been unfair, it's meant to be. If you have a problem with that, then it's probably not the game for you.

I'm not confused at all, I know exactly what I'm saying and what it means. I see you, however, trying to argue points that have been addressed, which I repeat for a fourth time patiently and without hostility, although I'm leaning towards impatience. Perhaps instead if immature assumptions about my character and 'game' (was this meant to be a competition of some kind?) you might want to try READING and addressing the points I've made instead of repeating the ones I've addressed.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Dominic karin
Versatility Production Corporation' LLC
#123 - 2014-05-23 03:42:38 UTC
Neat. :popcorn:
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#124 - 2014-05-23 04:00:56 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
But, you are quite close to what I am saying, and I think you understand it better than most at this stage.


I guess it might be helpful to mention that I once received a piece of paper with Bill Clinton's signature on it that basically said "Hey, Mayhaw, you're a super good reader!". And, what that means practically in terms of this discussion is that you're going to need to up your game to presidential level bull[expletive deleted] or better if you want me to miscomprehend what you are saying.

I'll try using words one more time, but if this doesn't work, know that I WILL draw you a picture:

IF skillpoints are an advantage,
Buying skillpoints is paying to win.

---

ELSE
Buying skillpoints is not paying to win.

. . .

IF you want to argue against paying to win, fine, but you must admit that skillpoints are an advantage.

THEN IF you want to admit that skillpoints are an advantage, you must admit that the game is UNFAIR as it currently is.

---

ELSE IF you want to argue that the game is FAIR as it currently is, fine, but you must argue that skillpoints don't give older players an advantage.

THEN IF you want to argue that skillpoints don't give older players an advantage, fine, but you must admit that buying skillpoints isn't paying to win.

. . .

Now you can go ahead and try to argue about experience and ISK and intelligence levels of various players, etc. being the real advantage, but you're only going to confuse YOURSELF.


Err... I posted more, above, that you should also read. Now, I intended no offence, but I have already addressed the whole "if SP give an advantage" issue. Read it maybe? I have addressed all of this, and I addressed it a second time for your advantage and a third for someone else so no, you are not reading.

Let me clarify again for you. Read it this time. Also, I'm not trying to be hostile, but you are simply not comprehending it, no matter what you claim of your comprehension ability. This isn't intended as hostility or insult, this is merely observation of you missing a point I've repeated, patiently, multiple times.

It's not skillpoints that are the issue, it's one's ability to apply them, via in-game experience.

Buying skillpoints is not paying to win, no, because you can't win EVE anyway. But at best, if SP does nothing then nothing changes and nobody has a reason to accelerate their SP anyway, so what's the point of making a change at all?

If you argue against paying to win, you don't have to admit that skillpoints are an advantage at all because that's not the problem. The problem is experience and application - pay attention now, because this is the key point - vets can apply PLEX-boosted SP with more experience than new players.

And I never said EVE wasn't unfair. It is EVE, after all, but SP are not the determining factor in that. EVE is and has always been unfair, it's meant to be. If you have a problem with that, then it's probably not the game for you.

I'm not confused at all, I know exactly what I'm saying and what it means. I see you, however, trying to argue points that have been addressed, which I repeat for a fourth time patiently and without hostility, although I'm leaning towards impatience. Perhaps instead if immature assumptions about my character and 'game' (was this meant to be a competition of some kind?) you might want to try READING and addressing the points I've made instead of repeating the ones I've addressed.



Veterans already can and do. Which is why everyone and their dog has a "Titan alt/Titan sitter/Dread alt/Carrier alt/super alt

They buy peoples old capital mains and just make them dedicated pilots.


Again.

If person A can level tactical logistics reconfiguration from 4 to 5 in 20 days for two plex

And person B can level tactical logistics reconfiguration from 4 to 5 in 40 days on 2 separate characters for two plexes.

How does person A destroy Eve while person B doesn't?

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#125 - 2014-05-23 04:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Akita T wrote:
As long as everything has to go through PLEX, it means it's always accessible through ISK, in which case, potato, tomato, we're basically already there, and we've been pretty much there ever since the day GTCs were introduced and their exchange for ISK was permitted.

The premise of this argument is that everything goes through plex and by virtue of that is available through isk. Let me know how you go with using said isk to accelerate your skill training right now.[...]

This means you're not protesting the addition of a certain feature as long as it's payable with AUR//PLEX, you're protesting the addition of a certain feature PERIOD.
In other words, debating whether the feature should exist is a completely different issue from the type of payment the feature should require, and thus, inherently not a "pay to win" issue, but a "gameplay appropriateness" issue.

Trying to lay the blame on the different type of issue is a no-no.

Quote:
The only other time PLEX becomes useful in this regard is giving people with money an advantage, and that's the problem with pay-to-win. Although, I'd be welcome to a trial run of the system just so I could say 'I told you so' when the vets start plexing their own SP and stay ahead of the newbs anyway.

THEORETHICALLY, you may have a smidge of point, to some "academic" degree.

PRACTICALLY however, this argument falls woefully short because of several "reality check" factors.

First, there's an overabundance of high-SP pilots for sale, and most of them have pretty damn good SP distributions.
Not only that, but they generally sell "BELOW COST" (sum of skill ISK prices plus ISK equivalent of PLEX-based subscription time needed to accue that SP).
So, basically, your "doomsday scenario" is not only grossly exaggerated, it's already realistically sort of happening to some degree since a long time ago.
That alone would be enough to negate your argument from a practical standpoint, but there's more.

Second, there's a pretty good reason why a good number of people have (numerous) hyper-specialized alts.
That reason is that the relevant skills to a properly do certain job are fairly limited in number, and by design capped in level, so past a certain point, adding more SP does very little to enhance the effectiveness (past a certain point, adding more SP only adds to the diversity of secondary tasks that pilot is suited for rather than make it perform better in its primary task).
Due to that, a veritable culture of "growing alts" has developed, which also contributes to the practical aspects of the previous point - not only are there enough high-SP pilots available for sale, but also many task-based SP-focused pilots.
Name any task you wish a purchasable pilot to be good at, and you'll most likely find a feasible one for sale on the ChaBaz.
The only issue will be how much ISK you'll need to pay (or are wiling to pay) - and in this particular context, "real-life cash" is interchangeable with "ISK" at a time-variable rate.
So the main point here is not whether the feature is available, but rather how much should it cost so that its significantly added convenience is balanced out by noticeably higher costs, on average at least.

Last, and this is again a repeat, it's not really that much more nor less "pay to win" than what we have right now, from a practical standpoint. At most you could call it "pay for the increased convenience of making it somewhat easier to purchase something that might help you win".
Unless you are advocating rolling back existing permissions (i.e. disallowing the trade of characters for ISK and//or disallowing the trade of PLEX for ISK and//or disallowing alts), again, as far as "pay to maybe have it easier to win" is concerned, real-life money has been interchangeable with ISK since ages ago already.
And yet again, the only point of contention being what the acceptable//right "trade balance" between additional ISK(//RLcash) cost and added convenience should be.

...

OR, LET'S PUT THIS IN MUCH SIMPLER TERMS: please explain to me (step by step and with practical, concrete examples) how exactly (and by how much) the hypothetical new feature would help a RL-cash-rich person NOTICEABLY more than it already allows through alternate means (especially if available cash is not an issue).
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#126 - 2014-05-23 04:34:10 UTC
So much facepalm in this thread. Thanfully, the last two posters pretty much covered the relevant points, saving me from having to do so.

+1
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2014-05-23 06:19:16 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
What the OP is asking for is pay-to-win, PLEX and character bazaar aren't.


No, this is simply not true. Yes, I've heard all of the academic arguments about how the character bazaar isn't P2W because it doesn't bypass game mechanics. This is true, but the current surplus of characters available makes this distinction much less meaningful than many would have you believe. The character bazaar is buying SP with the drawback that you usually can't get exactly what you want, but if you're willing to overbuy a little, then you can usually get really close. Don't tell me buying toons isn't P2W. I've done it a couple of times, and I can assure you that it is.

If I had everything my way, there would be no multiple accounts per player, no PLEX, and no character bazaar. But I can't have my way, so I'll continue using the system in the way that is most advantageous to me.

Say you bought Pamela Anderson, a 2004 toon with lots of SP.

Pamela wasn't created out of thin air (except the boobs), she was already in the game.

It really makes no difference to the rest of us who owns Pamela. Sure, Carmen and Pamela together are arguably a very OP duo, but if they had banded together as two separate players they would have been even more OP than a single player dual-boxing them.

You are probably very happy to have Pamela all for yourself, but the rest of the EVE population doesn't really care.

Your Pamela purchase didn't break the game because CCP didn't insta-spawn Pamela just because you gave them a couple hundred bucks. Pamela took 10 years to become such a high SP chick, which is how it should be.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2014-05-23 06:29:31 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
What the OP is asking for is pay-to-win, PLEX and character bazaar aren't.


If PLEX and the character bazaar aren't pay-for-advantage, then what is the paying for? Are you saying they are pay-to-lose? Pay-for-nothing? What is the point of paying money for ISK or a higher SP or more specialized character if that does not yield advantage

You paid for somebody else's sub, they gave you some ISK pennies in return.

No ISK or other game asset was created out of thin air. And the PLEX buyer freely decided how much ISK to give you.

For example, I pay cash for my 3 accounts because making nice amounts of ISK to spend on PVP is an enjoyable mini-game for me. If it were for me, I wouldn't pay more than 100 Mil ISK or so per PLEX.

PLEX economy is certainly more complex than you trying to sell PLEX to me, but at the end of the day it all boils down to player-to-player interaction. PVP in a sense. Which is great and doesn't break the game in any way.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Clementina
University of Caille
#129 - 2014-05-23 06:44:16 UTC
I wonder if it would be a good idea for CCP to offer a downvote button on these forums. In exchange for payment.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-05-23 07:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Angelique Duchemin wrote:


Veterans already can and do.


They can already accelerate their SP training with PLEX? That's news to me.

Akita T wrote:
This means you're not protesting the addition of a certain feature as long as it's payable with AUR//PLEX, you're protesting the addition of a certain feature PERIOD.


Don't put words in my mouth. Don't try to twist my arguments into something they are not for lack of an argument of your own, either. That's not what I said at all. When you get what I've said right, come back and try again.

Akita T wrote:
THEORETHICALLY, you may have a smidge of point, to some "academic" degree.

PRACTICALLY however, this argument falls woefully short because of several "reality check" factors.

First, there's an overabundance of high-SP pilots for sale, and most of them have pretty damn good SP distributions.
Not only that, but they generally sell "BELOW COST" (sum of skill ISK prices plus ISK equivalent of PLEX-based subscription time needed to accue that SP).
So, basically, your "doomsday scenario" is not only grossly exaggerated, it's already realistically sort of happening to some degree since a long time ago.
That alone would be enough to negate your argument from a practical standpoint, but there's more.


Err, no, because I've addressed this as well. I'm not going to do it for a fifth time so, when you've correctly read through and understood one of the four times previously that I've addressed this just in this thread (we'll just leave out how often it's been addressed over the last few years that this has come up and been dismissed as ridiculous) we'll try again.

I'm actually all for removing the character bazaar but the reason for its existence is one that cannot be ignored - it gives players a safe place to buy characters, something they'd do anything except here, CCP can regulate it and prevent buyers from being scammed out of real money. This doesn't stop the RMT'ers entirely, nor does it stop people going to them, but it certainly serves to minimise their usefulness. In that light, I'm all for the char bazaar's primary purpose just like I'm behind the legalisation of weed.

But I've already explained how PLEX for SP has no practical functionality and only serves to give veterans MORE of an advantage over new players THAN THEY CURRENTLY HAVE. The argument in for PLEX for SP so far is two fold; it gives a new player a head start, making the game easier (demonstrably wrong, veterans will always be ahead, that's the nature of the game, but this would make it so veterans with money > newbs and veterans without money. I have money, so bring it on, and watch EVE fail miserably. I'll happily demonstrate it to you). The other half of the argument is, "well what difference does it make?" Okay, let me ask you then, what difference does it make, and if it makes none, then why bother changing anything?

At the end of the day, it's still something exclusively available to people with money, or in the case of the PLEX being bought with isk then what new player is going to have the isk to benefit? If you have money, good for you, congratulations on your privilege and I hope you appreciate what it is you have that many will never have the opportunity for, EVER. But as soon as you start giving the privilege MORE privilege just because they have money, be it a game or otherwise, all you do is harm.

I'm against it for the sake of EVE, but I'm all for it for the sake of telling you, "I told you so". Because the latter is the only way we'll settle this if you're not going to use some rational thought in examining the most likely consequences. PLEX for SP serves no purpose in managing any form of RMT, which is the main intent of purpose for PLEX and the char bazaar to begin with, so something like that is very unlikely to appear anyway. Unless CCP sells out to EA tomorrow, in which case they automatically lose most of their playerbase.

But please, before you respond, at least TRY to understand what I'm saying because arguing against something I'm not saying, you really only insult your own intelligence.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#131 - 2014-05-23 07:40:21 UTC
Akita T wrote:
OR, LET'S PUT THIS IN MUCH SIMPLER TERMS: please explain to me (step by step and with practical, concrete examples) how exactly (and by how much) the hypothetical new feature would help a RL-cash-rich person NOTICEABLY more than it already allows through alternate means (especially if available cash is not an issue).


Alright, I'll bite.

Let's take a hypothetical RL rich guy who wants to get an Erebus pilot. Let's say that his two options are to buy a load of PLEX and either sell them on the market to finance a character or convert them into SP, at a rate of 1 million SP per PLEX.

A look at the character market would show that titan pilots tend to have over 80 million skillpoints. This is because they were previously utilized as subcapital pilots, carrier pilots, dread pilots, supercarrier pilots and ultimately trained into a titan. That means that they have loads of high multiplier skills at 5 that are not at all relevant to piloting a titan (i.e. drones, remote reps, siege/triage skills, etc.) but were highly needed for their previous roles. Currently, good titan characters seem to sell for ~40b.

A highly specialized titan character can be extremely good in a titan (max leadership, JDC/JFC 5, max doomsday/titan 5, JPG 4, all relevant armor skills maxed, solid booster skills, cybernetics 5, etc etc) with just ~60 million skillpoints. That means that our hypothetical rich guy would need to buy 60 PLEX for the skillpoints, and spend 6.5b ISK on skillbooks (or finance them with PLEX). This rounds out to ~50b.

So our hypothetical rich guy would need to spend more to get the skillpoints than he would to get the character. However, titan characters of any given flavor don't pop up for sale that often, and PLEX for SP would give you the ability to get the exact character you want instantly, with a name of your choice and without the need to compete with other players bidding on a character. And then there's the perfectly reasonable possibility that CCP could offer something like "25% more SP for a limited time" on SP boosts.

So we obviously can't demonstrate that there'd be more value in getting SP with PLEX than through character trading, but there's more to it than that. For one, if this hypothetical rich guy were to buy PLEX and sell them on the market instead of using them for SP boosts, that'd increase the PLEX available on the market. Then this ISK would be traded for characters or other in-game goods. As far as how much CCP would benefit from SP boosts for PLEX, it's a one-time deal rather than sustained income from game time, as the players using SP boosts would have one less reason to keep their characters on separate accounts.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#132 - 2014-05-23 07:56:48 UTC
I'd plex up 1 million SP awox alts at least once a week and instantly biomass them when I'm done. I don't think you guys want that.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2014-05-23 07:57:16 UTC
Akita T wrote:
OR, LET'S PUT THIS IN MUCH SIMPLER TERMS: please explain to me (step by step and with practical, concrete examples) how exactly (and by how much) the hypothetical new feature would help a RL-cash-rich person NOTICEABLY more than it already allows through alternate means (especially if available cash is not an issue).

You're making a very common noob mistake: discussing multiplayer game design from the perspective of a single individual player.

How easy it is for a single Mr. Richguy to get 100Bil ISK or a 100Mil SP toon is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is where that ISK or SP comes from.

Currently, it comes from other players (yes, a MMO typically has several people playing it) that have acquired it through regular game mechanics and have freely decided to trade it.

As Andski pointed out in the above post, try to acquire 100 titan pilots in a month on the character bazaar. Pretty hard, isn't it?

The hypothetical new feature would create ISK and SP out of thin air, breaking the game.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#134 - 2014-05-23 08:03:30 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
What the OP is asking for is pay-to-win, PLEX and character bazaar aren't.


No, this is simply not true. Yes, I've heard all of the academic arguments about how the character bazaar isn't P2W because it doesn't bypass game mechanics. This is true, but the current surplus of characters available makes this distinction much less meaningful than many would have you believe. The character bazaar is buying SP with the drawback that you usually can't get exactly what you want, but if you're willing to overbuy a little, then you can usually get really close. Don't tell me buying toons isn't P2W. I've done it a couple of times, and I can assure you that it is.

If I had everything my way, there would be no multiple accounts per player, no PLEX, and no character bazaar. But I can't have my way, so I'll continue using the system in the way that is most advantageous to me.

Say you bought Pamela Anderson, a 2004 toon with lots of SP.

Pamela wasn't created out of thin air (except the boobs), she was already in the game.

It really makes no difference to the rest of us who owns Pamela. Sure, Carmen and Pamela together are arguably a very OP duo, but if they had banded together as two separate players they would have been even more OP than a single player dual-boxing them.

You are probably very happy to have Pamela all for yourself, but the rest of the EVE population doesn't really care.

Your Pamela purchase didn't break the game because CCP didn't insta-spawn Pamela just because you gave them a couple hundred bucks. Pamela took 10 years to become such a high SP chick, which is how it should be.


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this. The problem is that you are implying a balanced supply-and-demand situation which simply doesn't exist. If the supply of characters was even remotely constrained, then yes, the fact that it took 10 years to roll a character would be relevant.

On the character bazaar, you can't even recoup the raw sub cost on characters let alone any kind of markup for, y'know, tending a skillsheet for years and completely removing the requirement for the buyer to wait all those years. So why are things this way? It's because there is more supply than there is demand. In fact, if CCP did implement a pay-for-SP program, it'd probably be quite a bit more expensive than buying characters using current channels, making it very much a vanity option.

To recap, what you've said is a perfectly valid (albeit purely academic) observation. In practice however, it makes absolutely no difference whether CCP materializes those SP out of thin air or not. At least not with the way supply and demand is at the moment.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2014-05-23 08:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Carmen Electra wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
What the OP is asking for is pay-to-win, PLEX and character bazaar aren't.


No, this is simply not true. Yes, I've heard all of the academic arguments about how the character bazaar isn't P2W because it doesn't bypass game mechanics. This is true, but the current surplus of characters available makes this distinction much less meaningful than many would have you believe. The character bazaar is buying SP with the drawback that you usually can't get exactly what you want, but if you're willing to overbuy a little, then you can usually get really close. Don't tell me buying toons isn't P2W. I've done it a couple of times, and I can assure you that it is.

If I had everything my way, there would be no multiple accounts per player, no PLEX, and no character bazaar. But I can't have my way, so I'll continue using the system in the way that is most advantageous to me.

Say you bought Pamela Anderson, a 2004 toon with lots of SP.

Pamela wasn't created out of thin air (except the boobs), she was already in the game.

It really makes no difference to the rest of us who owns Pamela. Sure, Carmen and Pamela together are arguably a very OP duo, but if they had banded together as two separate players they would have been even more OP than a single player dual-boxing them.

You are probably very happy to have Pamela all for yourself, but the rest of the EVE population doesn't really care.

Your Pamela purchase didn't break the game because CCP didn't insta-spawn Pamela just because you gave them a couple hundred bucks. Pamela took 10 years to become such a high SP chic, which is how it should be.


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this. The problem is that you are implying a balanced supply-and-demand situation which simply doesn't exist. If the supply of characters was even remotely constrained, then yes, the fact that it took 10 years to roll a character would be relevant.

On the character bazaar, you can't even recoup the raw sub cost on characters let alone any kind of markup for, y'know, tending a skillsheet for years and completely removing the requirement for the buyer to wait all those years. So why are things this way? It's because there is more supply than there is demand. In fact, if CCP did implement a pay-for-SP program, it'd probably be quite a bit more expensive than buying characters using current channels, making it very much a vanity option.

To recap, what you've said is a perfectly valid (albeit purely academic) observation. In practice however, it makes absolutely no difference whether CCP materializes those SP out of thin air or not. At least not with the way supply and demand is at the moment.


Clearly, you didn't read a word of what Andski just said. If you think supply is high now, it'll get higher. If you think putting a high price on SP is going to deter players from flooding the bazaar with an even higher one, you're incredibly naive and clearly haven't encountered anyone who will gladly spend a few thousand a month to maintain a small high sec mining fleet. Then there are the RMT'ers, and the botters...... and you continue to ignore the fact that characters on the bazaar as they are now still took time to train like everyone else. The list of potential problems this would antagonise is incredibly long, while the list of problems it would solve is an illusion.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2014-05-23 08:21:49 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
To recap, what you've said is a perfectly valid (albeit purely academic) observation. In practice however, it makes absolutely no difference whether CCP materializes those SP out of thin air or not. At least not with the way supply and demand is at the moment.

I hate to disagree with such a hot chick, but the difference is clear-cut.

Player-to-player trade and magical ISK or SP creation are two radically different mechanics. There really is no way that introducing the latter would be inconsequential to game balance. Given the complexity of EVE economy, the exact consequences are very difficult to forecast. Your blanket statement that 'it makes absolutely no difference' is bold to say the least. Big smile

OTOH, whether toon supply and demand is 'balanced' or not is anybody's personal opinion. If you think bazaar prices are ridiculously low, buy toons and relist them.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2014-05-23 08:38:18 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
If I had everything my way, there would be no multiple accounts per player, no PLEX, and no character bazaar.

Yup, this is a resonable opinion.

My understanding is CCP tackled a necessary evil (RMT) by introducing mechanics (PLEX and bazaar) that arguably also improve the game by adding depth, expanding the sandbox into the metagame, offering interesting new options to both new players and vets.

A genius move, imho.

Quite the opposite of CCP just saying 'f*k it, we give up, give us your dirty cash and you can have anything you want!'.

Why anyone would want to substitute smart mechanics for silly ones is beyond me, especially when the argument boils down to 'but we already have smart mechanics to get ISK and SP!'. WTF? What?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#138 - 2014-05-23 14:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Akita T wrote:
This means you're not protesting the addition of a certain feature as long as it's payable with AUR//PLEX, you're protesting the addition of a certain feature PERIOD.

Don't put words in my mouth. Don't try to twist my arguments into something they are not for lack of an argument of your own, either. That's not what I said at all. When you get what I've said right, come back and try again.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say.
To clarify, I was NOT saying "SP for AUR//PLEX is a good idea".
I was merely saying "SP for ISK is just as bad as SP for AUR//PLEX".

Remiel Pollard wrote:
reasoning as to why "SP for PLEX" is allegedly radically different from the CharBaz

On one hand, IF CCP would make it so that, say, one extra PLEX translates into double SP training speed for a month (or somewhere close to that), then your arguments would be quite valid.
The thing is, let's get real, CCP would never give away extra "accelerated" SP THAT cheaply, and all my "devil's advocate" style arguments are based on that assumption.

On the other hand, you are talking purely from a boolean "yes, it matters / no, it doesn't matter" perspective when it comes to influences, not a "how much it would matter from a practical standpoint" perspective.
It is my very strong opinion that even if total costs would be "only" about double compared to the current possibilities, the ACTUAL effect on the game economy would be tolerably small or even negligible.

P.S.

The only point that suffers any challenge is that last one, namely HOW EXPENSIVE this option (which to be clear, I also think is NOT A GOOD IDEA to have at all) needs to be in order to have a small enough negative impact.

P.P.S.
Andski wrote:
Alright, I'll bite.
Let's take a hypothetical RL rich guy who wants to get an Erebus pilot.
[...]
Currently, good titan characters seem to sell for ~40b.
A highly specialized titan character can be extremely good in a titan [...] rounds out to ~50b.
So our hypothetical rich guy would need to spend more to get the skillpoints than he would to get the character. However, titan characters of any given flavor don't pop up for sale that often, and PLEX for SP would give you the ability to get the exact character you want instantly [...and so on and so forth...]

So how do you figure things would stand if it wouldn't round up to "just" ~50b compared to ~40b, but instead to ~80b, or even higher than 100b?
Basically, see above.

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
The only thing that matters is where that ISK or SP comes from.

If you make it expensive enough in 99++% of cases it will still come the exact same way and you can sort of ignore the rest.

P.P.P.S.
To push the whole bad concept towards a more palatable solution that keeps the mechanism in place but neuters its abuse potential, additional limitations could be imposed.
For instance, something like a sliding scale of COSTS depending on pilot SP totals, so that newbies or brand new alts would get close to an ideal (for them) level of benefits, whereas most moderately skilled pilots would already find it too expensive for their tastes, and high-SP pilots would have next to no use for it unless desperate and/or highly impatient.
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#139 - 2014-05-23 15:29:30 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
If I had everything my way, there would be no multiple accounts per player, no PLEX, and no character bazaar.

Yup, this is a resonable opinion.

My understanding is CCP tackled a necessary evil (RMT) by introducing mechanics (PLEX and bazaar) that arguably also improve the game by adding depth, expanding the sandbox into the metagame, offering interesting new options to both new players and vets.

A genius move, imho.

Quite the opposite of CCP just saying 'f*k it, we give up, give us your dirty cash and you can have anything you want!'.

Why anyone would want to substitute smart mechanics for silly ones is beyond me, especially when the argument boils down to 'but we already have smart mechanics to get ISK and SP!'. WTF? What?


Fair enough. I think you and a few others are misunderstanding me though. I'm not pushing for the feature to buy SP with PLEX. If it was put to a vote, I might vote yes just because I think EVE on the whole is kind of stale right now, and hilarious game-breaking changes would get my vote. (Caps in high sec plz)

The only point I was trying to make was to argue against those who say "PLEX for SP is P2W and Character Bazaar isn't".
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#140 - 2014-05-23 16:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Then again, there are plenty of (mostly) cosmetic additions that can be made which people would like to use and would be fine with paying AUR and/or PLEX for.
To name a few ranging from trivial to convoluted...

Race // bloodline // gender change
From a gameplay standpoint, as things stand right now, there's only two things that MIGHT potentially be affected, namely the NPC corp you might still be in and the NPC corp you get shoved into when you leave a player corp.
Both are pretty much negligible as far as gameplay impact goes.
A "reasonable" price range would be anything from half a PLEX's worth of AUR up to around 3 actual PLEX.

Name change
CAVEAT: in order for it to be actually cosmetic, the character ID must remain unchanged, and the game mechanics must be adjusted to use an "also known as"//"alias" system that lets you search for both current name and old "aliases" returning the same character for any alias searched for.
All names (current and former) would need to be unique (just like current names), and all old aliases get "freed up" upon biomass alongside the current name.
There could also be a long cooldown between changes.
A reasonable pricing scheme would be something along the lines of 2-6 PLEX for a new alias, and 1-3 PLEX for selecting a new main name from the pool of former aliases.

Name changes for player corps, player alliances
They would follow the same rules as above but carry a much heftier price tag.
Price tag could scale with average member count in the past X days//weeks.

Flight data recorder / docked-only playback device / recorded special holotape copy / consumable special holotapes
Exactly what it says on the tin.
Record your flight and play it back whenever you like to relive the glory days (or horrible mistakes other people made if you loot their holo-recordings).
NOTE1: special holotapes, as in, not the current NPC goods
NOTE2: hugely variable rate of special holotape consumption based on stored data (i.e. solo flight through nowhere in particular consumes one item in maybe a few hours, fierce and huge-scale space battle could consume one item every few seconds)
NOTE3: playback accuracy NOT guaranteed (at first) between major patches (that change ship stats or such)

...and a lot more.