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[Kronos] Medium Micro Jump Drives

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Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
#421 - 2014-05-19 10:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrathful Penguins
afkalt wrote:

I simply don't see how that's magically an issue tomorrow if it's not already an issue for you today. It's not even like it's a stretch or off the wall fit to adapt a nano cruiser to that role.

I don't know how you think this works at the moment but basically right now you can fight ships in cruisers without having so many logi that you can **** up the piloting of the cruiser completely, get scrammed, scram them and be fine because "lol blobbing + falcons + logis". A great many people actually use piloting skill to fight bigger ships, rather than logis. Your suggestion of "that's okay, just scram the bc in your cruiser, your logis will keep you up" isn't actually helpful because it basically amounts to "to kill a bc you now have to blob it" whereas previously you didn't have to. You think you're describing the solution but you're actually agreeing about the problem. If the solution is "yeah, longpoints don't work, you gotta scram a big ship in your small ship and blob it" then we agree entirely about the situation and just don't think that's a good direction for the game to move in.

TLDR: "it's fine, the blob will save you" doesn't address the legitimate concerns of the smallgang/solo community here
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#422 - 2014-05-19 10:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Make disrupters stop the MMJD. Problem solved!

The mobile jump drives and the mobile cyno inhibitor are examples of good ideas that were poorly implemented, so i'm kind of with the people who think CCP will make a mistake with them implementation of the MMJD. However, i like the idea of BCs being able to use a MJD but i feel it should only jump the ship 50km and disrupters should stop it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#423 - 2014-05-19 10:56:59 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
afkalt wrote:

I simply don't see how that's magically an issue tomorrow if it's not already an issue for you today. It's not even like it's a stretch or off the wall fit to adapt a nano cruiser to that role.

I don't know how you think this works at the moment but basically right now you can fight ships in cruisers without having so many logi that you can **** up the piloting of the cruiser completely, get scrammed, scram them and be fine because "lol blobbing + falcons + logis". A great many people actually use piloting skill to fight bigger ships, rather than logis. Your suggestion of "that's okay, just scram the bc in your cruiser, your logis will keep you up" isn't actually helpful because it basically amounts to "to kill a bc you now have to blob it" whereas previously you didn't have to. You think you're describing the solution but you're actually agreeing about the problem. If the solution is "yeah, longpoints don't work, you gotta scram a big ship in your small ship and blob it" then we agree entirely about the situation and just don't think that's a good direction for the game to move in.

TLDR: "it's fine, the blob will save you" doesn't address the legitimate concerns of the smallgang/solo community here



No, seriously. You're going to have to explain it better than that. Bearing in mind the argument I'm disagreeing with is that "it is unreasonable to need a scram as anything which can do it will die instantly to gate guns".

However I submit the situation is thus:

Today:
Tackle BC - tank gate guns/warp off after heavier tackle arrives

Tomorrow
Tackle BC - tank gate guns/warp off after heavier tackle arrives

Difference being tomorrow you need can't use a long point so you need a quicker ship to get a hold of it...aaaand that's about it. Changes the dynamic a little sure, but like I said, it's not like it's a completely gimped fit with nanos out the ears and naff all EHP. It's a decent enough fit which will be able to grab them.


Question: If a long point magically worked, how does the situation change? Apart from you can use a heavier tackle than a cruiser.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
#424 - 2014-05-19 11:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrathful Penguins
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.
King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#425 - 2014-05-19 11:07:42 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp.


You are confusing ship stats with piloting skill

More speed and projection is an automatic win in EVE with current mechanics with no skill involved.



Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#426 - 2014-05-19 11:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#427 - 2014-05-19 11:16:52 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#428 - 2014-05-19 11:18:58 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the point I was contending. Which, once again, was that gate tackle is now impossible because of the inability to use a long point.



That it changes open game dynamics is a different question.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
#429 - 2014-05-19 11:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrathful Penguins
Gregor Parud wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense.

I absolutely agree that bcs are in a terrible place compared to cruisers right now, cruisers are ridiculously quicker than they were and generally have projection/application bonuses which the bcs lack. I just don't see how giving bcs the ability to escape from infinite longpoints if you refuse to brawl them is a solution to their problems. It's a much bigger issue of ship stats and bonuses and a gimmick that makes them unkillable except through brawling solves absolutely nothing.

The power creep infecting eve has made cruisers incredibly dumb and if they were toned down or bcs moved up in line with them that'd be awesome. I don't think cruisers are in a good place right now, their dps is only slightly lower than bcs, they have better bonuses and they have way better base stats. But MMJDs are not the answer to any part of that problem.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
#430 - 2014-05-19 11:21:33 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum

If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#431 - 2014-05-19 11:22:48 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum

If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP.



I hope you're not talking about a stab Blink
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
#432 - 2014-05-19 11:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrathful Penguins
afkalt wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum

If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP.



I hope you're not talking about a stab Blink

Suggest that a brawler fit a module that reduces his lock range and takes the place of a damage lowslot in order to escape a longpoint and that's a totally unreasonable tradeoff to ask them to make. Fozzie suggests that kiters have to get into scram range in order to secure kills and somehow that's legit.

Fitting is a game of tradeoffs, each module comes at a the cost of the others you didn't fit. However not all tradeoffs are good, some are bad and make the module totally worthless, the warp disruptor having (advantage, can point things without getting scrammed, disadvantage, can never get a kill, ever) is not a sensible tradeoff for the module. It's already got a tradeoff, they can still mwd.
Kosetzu
Everything For Efficiency
WE FORM BL0B
#433 - 2014-05-19 11:27:42 UTC
Shorter range seems better imo, also no MMJD for Attack BCs I'd say.

Any chance of a nifty cooldown or activation reduction for the DST to make it shine a bit?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#434 - 2014-05-19 11:31:34 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum

If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP.



I hope you're not talking about a stab Blink

Suggest that a brawler fit a module that reduces his lock range and takes the place of a damage lowslot in order to escape a longpoint and that's a totally unreasonable tradeoff to ask them to make. Fozzie suggests that kiters have to get into scram range in order to secure kills and somehow that's legit.

Fitting is a game of tradeoffs, each module comes at a the cost of the others you didn't fit. However not all tradeoffs are good, some are bad and make the module totally worthless, the warp disruptor having (advantage, can point things without getting scrammed, disadvantage, can never get a kill, ever) is not a sensible tradeoff for the module. It's already got a tradeoff, they can still mwd.


Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs.


Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#435 - 2014-05-19 11:32:13 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum

If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP.


so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#436 - 2014-05-19 11:33:12 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense.

I absolutely agree that bcs are in a terrible place compared to cruisers right now, cruisers are ridiculously quicker than they were and generally have projection/application bonuses which the bcs lack. I just don't see how giving bcs the ability to escape from infinite longpoints if you refuse to brawl them is a solution to their problems. It's a much bigger issue of ship stats and bonuses and a gimmick that makes them unkillable except through brawling solves absolutely nothing.

The power creep infecting eve has made cruisers incredibly dumb and if they were toned down or bcs moved up in line with them that'd be awesome. I don't think cruisers are in a good place right now, their dps is only slightly lower than bcs, they have better bonuses and they have way better base stats. But MMJDs are not the answer to any part of that problem.


No, your whine is how your kiting backbone is "in danger" because you might miss some poor sod in a BC, using all kinds of hyperbole and dumb logic. Your "nonono, I'm in this for the good of the game" is very obvious.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
#437 - 2014-05-19 11:37:56 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.

If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.


It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.


Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense.

I absolutely agree that bcs are in a terrible place compared to cruisers right now, cruisers are ridiculously quicker than they were and generally have projection/application bonuses which the bcs lack. I just don't see how giving bcs the ability to escape from infinite longpoints if you refuse to brawl them is a solution to their problems. It's a much bigger issue of ship stats and bonuses and a gimmick that makes them unkillable except through brawling solves absolutely nothing.

The power creep infecting eve has made cruisers incredibly dumb and if they were toned down or bcs moved up in line with them that'd be awesome. I don't think cruisers are in a good place right now, their dps is only slightly lower than bcs, they have better bonuses and they have way better base stats. But MMJDs are not the answer to any part of that problem.


No, your whine is how your kiting backbone is "in danger" because you might miss some poor sod in a BC, using all kinds of hyperbole and dumb logic. Your "nonono, I'm in this for the good of the game" is very obvious.

Of course I'm posting because the game I play is changing for the worse. The game some f1 brawl monkey might be changing for the better if every fight is scrams on both ships and calling in his blob because then he won't die to the likes of me because I don't fly with a blob. For him everything being blob vs blob might be an improvement, he might be part of the biggest blob, for me it's certainly not because I don't care for that.

I'm not sure why you think identifying that I am trying to preserve my style of gameplay when it is under a very serious attack in any way discredits the issues with this module. I don't deny that I use warp disruptors, nor that I'd like to keep them relevant. My point is just that this change makes them far less relevant and I don't think that is a good direction.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#438 - 2014-05-19 11:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
TrouserDeagle wrote:


so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing


My current kiting ship is a plated deimos. Yesterday I fought a gang of arazu, loki, scimitar, 2 sabres, stabber, stiletto, nidhoggur, thanatos. I drew the stabber out from rep range and killed it. You dont need speed mods to skirmish, just good piloting.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
#439 - 2014-05-19 11:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrathful Penguins
afkalt wrote:


Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs.


Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one.

I still contend that asking a brawler to fit a warp core stab to survive being kited is 10x more reasonable than asking a kiter to fit a scram to get a kill. A brawler can still brawl with a single stab, a kiter cannot kite in scram range.

This is entirely beside the point though. The issue facing bcs is that they are slower than everything but bs and are massively overshadowed by bs in the role of being slow tanky high dps bricks while simultaneously being massively overshadowed in projection, speed and agility by cruisers which, due to the propagation of application bonuses, tend to actually do more damage at range than the bcs. MMJDs change no part of that issue. It's one that can only be fixed by some stat changes and the spreading of projection/application bonuses to cbcs or their removal from cruisers. They are not a useful middle choice between the two with the best of both worlds, rather it is the opposite, the worst of both worlds, not good enough at brawling, not flexible enough to not brawl.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#440 - 2014-05-19 11:43:54 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
afkalt wrote:


Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs.


Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one.

I still contend that asking a brawler to fit a warp core stab to survive being kited is 10x more reasonable than asking a kiter to fit a scram to get a kill. A brawler can still brawl with a single stab, a kiter cannot kite in scram range.


A brawler can brawl with multiple stabs, there are pvp videos involving dual stabbed vexors and such.