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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

First post First post First post
Author
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1761 - 2014-05-21 14:51:35 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

Power projection is what creates massive coalitions resulting in boring, stagnant gameplay and empty space. Just because there's *some* stuff happening doesn't mean it's not a borefest. If you can't understand this then I don't know what to tell you.


No, power projection has nothing to do with empty space. Null was just as empty before power projection existed and it will be just as empty if it doesn't exist.


Of course it does, power projection in all its forms is the exact reason why it's mostly empty.
Cade Windstalker
#1762 - 2014-05-21 14:51:58 UTC
Vetium wrote:
Wow ... I can see a high activity of freighter gankers here ... it seems they are highly emotionally connected to this topic.

Anyway ... I'm just here to voice my disapproval of this change (not that anybody cares, I know). I can't see any value added to the game, just costs of freighters will higher. That's it.

So, I will wait for modular t3 freighters. Bear

PS: hm, this update just came in, so my immediate thoughts are
- with regards to low slots: hurray for armor tanking freighters and boohoo for shield tanking freighters
- how about a Capital Ancillary Armor repairer then, that should make the life of gankers a little more difficult


Someone didn't look at the PG and CPU on those Freighters...
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1763 - 2014-05-21 14:52:22 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Ok, these changes I'm happy with!

Now, can we get the CPU to 30 to put a DCU II on there? Then I'll happily buy one and use it alot!


It was done this way to specifically avoid you being able to double your tank with one module.


This.

You aren't getting DCUs on a freighter.


Yes. CCP wants to retain as many Goon alts in Catalysts as it can, because industry sucks.
Valterra Craven
#1764 - 2014-05-21 14:53:50 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

Power projection is what creates massive coalitions resulting in boring, stagnant gameplay and empty space. Just because there's *some* stuff happening doesn't mean it's not a borefest. If you can't understand this then I don't know what to tell you.


No, power projection has nothing to do with empty space. Null was just as empty before power projection existed and it will be just as empty if it doesn't exist.


Of course it does, power projection in all its forms is the exact reason why it's mostly empty.


Then explain why Null was just as empty from 2005-2007 when power projection didn't exist.
Axe Coldon
#1765 - 2014-05-21 14:54:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone the Op has now been updated with a revised version of the design. As many of you were anticipating, we will be achieving the goal of customizability through low slots instead of rig slots. Big thanks to everyone who has provided reasoned feedback in the thread and special thanks to the CSM.

The most significant issues raised in the thread about the previous version of the design are:
  • The permanence of customizability that relies completely on rigs. As the only classes to have rig slots alone with no fitting slots, Freighters and Jump Freighters would have allowed customization towards a player's most common use cases, but would still lack the very important ability to adjust fittings in response to changing needs and environments.
  • The relative lack of interesting choices for Jump Freighter pilots. Due to the very unique situation of Jump Freighters, they did not receive very significant benefits from any rigs other than cargohold optimization. This is partially an issue with the lack of gameplay around JF use and their near complete safety when used optimally, but it also reflected a lack of good options.

To deal with the first issue, we are making the significant change of providing the goal of customizability through low slots rather than rig slots. Keeping this path balanced requires a few extra tricks but we believe that it will provide a more interesting set of gameplay choices for freighter pilots to make on an everyday basis.
All Freighters and Jump Freighters will receive 3 low slots, and not receive any rig slots. They will have very restrictive powergrid and cpu totals, and a special role bonus that allows the use of Reinforced Bulkhead modules.

In Kronos we are also adding a new set of low-slot warp speed enhancing modules that can be obtained through low-sec exploration. These modules will increase warp speed by a flat addition of 0.2, 0.25 or 0.3 au/s each. We expect that these will be popular modules for use on Freighters.

To help address the lack of interesting options for Jump Freighters, we are planning to introduce a set of jump fuel conservation modules in the Crius release in July. These modules will not be available in Kronos.

So we expect that most Freighter and Jump Freighter pilots will use their three low slots to mix and match the following modules to meet their needs:
  • Expanded Cargoholds
  • Reinforced Bulkheads
  • Hyperspatial Accelerators (warp speed modules)
  • Inertia Stabilizers
  • Overdrive Injector Systems
  • (For certain armor tanking fits) Adaptive Nano Platings
  • (For Jump Freighters) Capacitor Power Relays
  • (For Jump Freighters after the Crius release) Jump Fuel Conservation Modules


The base cargo capacity of Freighters is being decreased so that a set of three Tech Two Expanded Cargoholds adds 21-25% cargo above the previous maximum values. For Jump Freighters, three T2 Expanders will increase cargo capacity by 1-2%.
This means that Freighters can get significantly higher maximum capacity than before using modules, and we're increasing the volume of packaged capital ships (to 1.3 million m3) and unpackaged station containers (to 2 million m3) to compensate.

The base EHP of all Freighters and Jump Freighters is being increased (since Expanded Cargoholds affect freighter hp more than cargo rigs do) and more emphasis is being placed on armor and shield than before (although all Freighters still gain the majority of their hitpoints from hull).

Let us know what you think!


I like it. If there must be change, this is the better way to go then rigs. I am especially intrigued with jump fuel conservation. modules. Not running a full load, throw those babies on there. What no mid or high slots but I guess a cloaked JF is too much for people to handle.

Looking forward to stats so we can see how much we can buff ehp on a normal freighter if we don't need max cargo.

Thats what I get for speculating and making a bunch of t2 cap cargo rigs.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1766 - 2014-05-21 14:55:16 UTC
Null is mostly empty because of most of the space is inherently ****

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Valterra Craven
#1767 - 2014-05-21 14:55:26 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Ok, these changes I'm happy with!

Now, can we get the CPU to 30 to put a DCU II on there? Then I'll happily buy one and use it alot!


It was done this way to specifically avoid you being able to double your tank with one module.


This.

You aren't getting DCUs on a freighter.


What about a role bonus for CPU on PDU's?

This way you could fit some shield tanking mods like the resistance plats for armor?
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
The Watchmen.
#1768 - 2014-05-21 14:56:18 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

Power projection is what creates massive coalitions resulting in boring, stagnant gameplay and empty space. Just because there's *some* stuff happening doesn't mean it's not a borefest. If you can't understand this then I don't know what to tell you.


No, power projection has nothing to do with empty space. Null was just as empty before power projection existed and it will be just as empty if it doesn't exist.


Of course it does, power projection in all its forms is the exact reason why it's mostly empty.


Then explain why Null was just as empty from 2005-2007 when power projection didn't exist.

Only part of the reason, but.. http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1769 - 2014-05-21 14:57:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The base EHP of all Freighters and Jump Freighters is being increased (since Expanded Cargoholds affect freighter hp more than cargo rigs do) and more emphasis is being placed on armor and shield than before (although all Freighters still gain the majority of their hitpoints from hull).

Let us know what you think!


there goes my hero paper mache freighter.

Xander Phoena wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Ok, these changes I'm happy with!

Now, can we get the CPU to 30 to put a DCU II on there? Then I'll happily buy one and use it alot!


It was done this way to specifically avoid you being able to double your tank with one module.


This.

You aren't getting DCUs on a freighter.


<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1770 - 2014-05-21 14:57:15 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Xander Phoena wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Ok, these changes I'm happy with!

Now, can we get the CPU to 30 to put a DCU II on there? Then I'll happily buy one and use it alot!


It was done this way to specifically avoid you being able to double your tank with one module.


This.

You aren't getting DCUs on a freighter.


Yes. CCP wants to retain as many Goon alts in Catalysts as it can, because industry sucks.


That, or craven cowards like you aren't allowed to be invincible with a 1 million isk investment.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1771 - 2014-05-21 14:57:20 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

Power projection is what creates massive coalitions resulting in boring, stagnant gameplay and empty space. Just because there's *some* stuff happening doesn't mean it's not a borefest. If you can't understand this then I don't know what to tell you.


No, power projection has nothing to do with empty space. Null was just as empty before power projection existed and it will be just as empty if it doesn't exist.


Of course it does, power projection in all its forms is the exact reason why it's mostly empty.


Then explain why Null was just as empty from 2005-2007 when power projection didn't exist.



Frankly, it's rather embarrassing I even have to explain it to you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1772 - 2014-05-21 14:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
So if I'm reading these numbers correctly, you've mainly moved some HP and cargo around compared to before, and reduced the JF agility nerf, is that about right? Things like the resist changes and skill bonuses are still the same as far as I can tell, and it would be nice if I didn't have to spot check every item in my spreadsheet. Blink
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1773 - 2014-05-21 14:57:33 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Null is mostly empty because of most of the space is inherently ****


Provi is mostly populated and its the shittest space in the whole of Eve. It's not the space that's the problem, it's the blue dohnut, the renting concept and the unenlightened blue-dohnut attitude towards other players who "aren't one of us" that's the problem.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1774 - 2014-05-21 14:58:44 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Love the new update, but one question, when will damage controls become passive mods?

Never.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Valterra Craven
#1775 - 2014-05-21 14:59:00 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

Power projection is what creates massive coalitions resulting in boring, stagnant gameplay and empty space. Just because there's *some* stuff happening doesn't mean it's not a borefest. If you can't understand this then I don't know what to tell you.


No, power projection has nothing to do with empty space. Null was just as empty before power projection existed and it will be just as empty if it doesn't exist.


Of course it does, power projection in all its forms is the exact reason why it's mostly empty.


Then explain why Null was just as empty from 2005-2007 when power projection didn't exist.



Frankly, it's rather embarrassing I even have to explain it to you.


Charts without proper interpretation are meaningless. You would need to compare the ratio of total players active at any given time to players that live primarily in null and then those that lived other places. I bet the ratios are the same now as they were then.
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#1776 - 2014-05-21 14:59:15 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
Hopefully the swap from rigs to low slots will keep some of the doubters happy. The flexibility this provides should make for a far more interesting time for those of you wondering how to fit your freighters as opposed to simply putting in T2 rigs and never changing it.

CSM9 (particularly but not exclusively the likes of Mynnna, Corbexx, Steve Ronuken and Sugar Kyle) have worked real hard with Fozzie on getting these numbers right. Looking forward to hearing your feedback.


Have not done the calculations yet but preliminary looks pretty good. This is much better for the flexibility CCP was looking for.
Gumpy Bitterhawk
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#1777 - 2014-05-21 14:59:46 UTC
THANK YOU MYNNNA, THANK YOU FOZZIE
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1778 - 2014-05-21 15:00:07 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Null is mostly empty because of most of the space is inherently ****


Provi is mostly populated and its the shittest space in the whole of Eve. It's not the space that's the problem, it's the blue dohnut, the renting concept and the unenlightened blue-dohnut attitude towards other players who "aren't one of us" that's the problem.


No, its the space. Most of our space is near worthless, hence our not bothering with investing in it
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#1779 - 2014-05-21 15:00:19 UTC
love these changes, much more interesting (and much more customizable) than rigs
Alexis Nightwish
#1780 - 2014-05-21 15:00:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. As we announced at the Fanfest keynote, we are rebalancing Freighters and Jump Freighters in the Kronos release. The biggest change in this rebalance is the addition of customizability to a class that has previously been entirely static.
We originally approached this through rig slots, but a few valid concerns were raised in this thread and we've made some significant adjustments to the plan to address them. The CSM has been a very significant help in this process.

The most significant issues raised in the thread are:
  • The permanence of customizability that relies completely on rigs. As the only classes to have rig slots alone with no fitting slots, Freighters and Jump Freighters would have allowed customization towards a player's most common use cases, but would still lack the very important ability to adjust fittings in response to changing needs and environments.
  • The relative lack of interesting choices for Jump Freighter pilots. Due to the very unique situation of Jump Freighters, they did not receive very significant benefits from any rigs other than cargohold optimization. This is partially an issue with the lack of gameplay around JF use and their near complete safety when used optimally, but it also reflected a lack of good options.

To deal with the first issue, we are making the significant change of providing the goal of customizability through low slots rather than rig slots. Keeping this path balanced requires a few extra tricks but we believe that it will provide a more interesting set of gameplay choices for freighter pilots to make on an everyday basis.
All Freighters and Jump Freighters will receive 3 low slots, and not receive any rig slots. They will have very restrictive powergrid and cpu totals, and a special role bonus that allows the use of Reinforced Bulkhead modules.

In Kronos we are also adding a new set of low-slot warp speed enhancing modules that can be obtained through low-sec exploration. These modules will increase warp speed by a flat addition of 0.2, 0.25 or 0.3 au/s each. We expect that these will be popular modules for use on Freighters.

To help address the lack of interesting options for Jump Freighters, we are planning to introduce a set of jump fuel conservation modules in the Crius release in July. These modules will not be available in Kronos.

So we expect that most Freighter and Jump Freighter pilots will use their three low slots to mix and match the following modules to meet their needs:
  • Expanded Cargoholds
  • Reinforced Bulkheads
  • Hyperspatial Accelerators (warp speed modules)
  • Inertia Stabilizers
  • Overdrive Injector Systems
  • (For certain armor tanking fits) Adaptive Nano Platings
  • (For Jump Freighters) Capacitor Power Relays
  • (For Jump Freighters after the Crius release) Jump Fuel Conservation Modules


The base cargo capacity of Freighters is being decreased so that a set of three Tech Two Expanded Cargoholds adds 21-25% cargo above the previous maximum values. For Jump Freighters, three T2 Expanders will increase cargo capacity by 1-2%.
This means that Freighters can get significantly higher maximum capacity than before using modules, and we're increasing the volume of packaged capital ships (to 1.3 million m3) and unpackaged station containers (to 2 million m3) to compensate.

The base EHP of all Freighters and Jump Freighters is being increased (since Expanded Cargoholds affect freighter hp more than cargo rigs do) and more emphasis is being placed on armor and shield than before (although all Freighters still gain the majority of their hitpoints from hull).

This is SO much better. Thank you! ^^

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

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