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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Vhelnik Cojoin
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#821 - 2014-05-18 17:16:13 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Until someone will start to actually do what you refer to as infeasible and cut the prices, of course.

You mean similar to how local prices on the street go down in the real world, when local trade barriers go up?

I don't think so...

More like someone will make additional efforts locally you don't want to do yourself and win the market.


I would absolutely love to be a fly on the wall, the day Querns is summoned to his first meeting with His Bastardness, the Chairman of the Miner's Union for Outer Podunk, to be told the Tritanium prices for the coming week.

Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EvE-oconomy and o-kay for you.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#822 - 2014-05-18 17:16:22 UTC
So, bit off topic, but I noticed your signature, Dracvlad.

Wasn't Hub Zero that silly Grr Goons NPC null thing Infinity Ziona was working on before he got banned? Or am I thinking of something else?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#823 - 2014-05-18 17:20:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, bit off topic, but I noticed your signature, Dracvlad.

Wasn't Hub Zero that silly Grr Goons NPC null thing Infinity Ziona was working on before he got banned? Or am I thinking of something else?


Infinity Ziona got banned, damn, I wondered what happened because he suddenly disappeared, please could you send me an in game mail on anything you know, the lads liked Infinity a lot as I did so we will all be a bit gutted if this is the case.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jatok Reknar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#824 - 2014-05-18 17:20:45 UTC
Hmm I was hoping this change would be a nice buff. But after reading it, kind of sad. :( Freighters were definitely not over-powered before and this feels like a nerf effectively.

If freighters need to be hyper-specialized like this, we need to be able to swap configurations on the fly (like modules). Not choose our setup based on rigs which can't be swapped out. This feels like:

- More expensive to setup a freighter for any job
- Still no configuration to adapt to a new job without massive expensive to swap out rigs

You would essentially have at least the small-fish (who cannot afford a number of freighters setup for the job at hand) resorting to finding a mediocre balance of states, rigging it appropriately and never touching it again for the life of that ship. I don't think that counts as giving more configurable options.

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#825 - 2014-05-18 17:22:21 UTC
I doubt Inifinity got banned. Probably Kaarous just trolling as usual as he has an axe to grind with Infinity.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#826 - 2014-05-18 17:26:10 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I doubt Inifinity got banned. Probably Kaarous just trolling as usual as he has an axe to grind with Infinity.


He didn't get banned, just had a hilarious meltdown in OOPE: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=337649
Station Sitter
Heavy Star Industries
#827 - 2014-05-18 17:33:11 UTC
How about a decrease in build costs to compensate in the need for rigs to return to what we have now? This sucks, to be perfectly honest.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#828 - 2014-05-18 17:38:48 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I doubt Inifinity got banned. Probably Kaarous just trolling as usual as he has an axe to grind with Infinity.


He didn't get banned, just had a hilarious meltdown in OOPE: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=337649


The same person reported me for using a similar word to Twit and another for using the word d*ck, he is actively using the petition system to attack our people on any swear word he can find.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#829 - 2014-05-18 17:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We worked out that there are greater chances of you being struck by lightning in RL than getting ganked. Unless you do something silly like stuffing 10 billion in the hold.

Male bovine manure.

The average chance per year of getting hit by lightening for someone living in the US is around 1 in 500,000.

In EVE terms this means, that for the chances to just be equal, then there has to be an average of 500,000 freighter pilots active for each freighter killed by suicide ganks in EVE per year.

So with a total of 155 freighters and jump freighters killed just during the four days of Burn Jita 3, those losses alone would require a total of 155 * 500,000 = 77,500,000 individual (jump) freighter pilots being active in space at least once in a given year.

Then there are all the other suicide kills, like the ongoing CODEdot campaign in Isanamo, the russians and CFC in Niarja etc.

Somehow your statement seems just a tiny bit unlikely to be true...


The average month sees around 30 to 40 ganks. Now, we dont work out the chance based on per pilot but per trip and we do not include people who made themselves a target by stuffing billions in the hold. There are millions of trips made by Freighters each and every month. Over the span of the last decade, taking into account the number of freighter trips made the numbers work out as being much lower than being struck by lightning. Granted you are still more likely to be ganked than win the lottery.

The vast bulk of people will never be ganked.
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#830 - 2014-05-18 17:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Digger Pollard
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


First of all, it's not zero. Concord will destroy your ship 100% of the time, so the risk is 100%. Steps taken to mitigate the effects of that risk is called smart gameplay.

Secondly, ganking is only as easy, and as profitable, as bad players make it for us.

Thirdly, I have seen 8 billion isk killmails that drop less than 300mil. It does happen, and since the possibility of that happening is NOT zero, that means that risk is in fact involved in any gank, regardless of how much the freighter is hauling.


First of all, it's zero. You know about concord, so it's not a risk, it's actually something you can reliably count on. Calling concord a "risk" should deprive you from using word "smart". But since you're a gankbear, you shouldn't use "risk" either...

Secondly, ganking is only as EXTREMELY easy as people ARE FORCED to make it for you, because there is no alternative to a freighter and no alternative to what you haul - you haul what you have to. There is no alternative to a route either. Just how much easier could it be?

Thirdly, I have seen 10 billion isk killmails which drop 11 billion, due to price calculator and jita price difference.

Gankbears being stupid lazy risk-averse crybabies as usual.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#831 - 2014-05-18 17:47:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
I want gank pilots to have to scan my Charon to see what defenses (or lack thereof) I have on my ship.

so you're willing to take a massive freighter nerf, just so gankers have to click 1 more button before they gank you?



They could always just make freighters immune to scanning

That would cause a ruckus, but would be more in line with the risk/reward

Freighter ganking has zero risk, except maybe the loot fairy, and all the rewards


First of all, it's not zero. Concord will destroy your ship 100% of the time, so the risk is 100%. Steps taken to mitigate the effects of that risk is called smart gameplay.

Secondly, ganking is only as easy, and as profitable, as bad players make it for us.

Thirdly, I have seen 8 billion isk killmails that drop less than 300mil. It does happen, and since the possibility of that happening is NOT zero, that means that risk is in fact involved in any gank, regardless of how much the freighter is hauling.



Concord is NOT a risk, it is a known outcome - a calculated outcome based on scanning the ship - NOT a risk, it is 100% a known quantity

second - has nothing to do with risk reward for ganking, that is risk/reward for hauling

third - I gave the loot fairy as a prime example - and the only real risk

So, if you couldn't scan would you stop ganking? probably not - therefore the risk is still worth the reward if if you can't scan
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#832 - 2014-05-18 17:50:04 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


First of all, it's not zero. Concord will destroy your ship 100% of the time, so the risk is 100%. Steps taken to mitigate the effects of that risk is called smart gameplay.

Secondly, ganking is only as easy, and as profitable, as bad players make it for us.

Thirdly, I have seen 8 billion isk killmails that drop less than 300mil. It does happen, and since the possibility of that happening is NOT zero, that means that risk is in fact involved in any gank, regardless of how much the freighter is hauling.


First of all, it's zero. You know about concord, so it's not a risk, it's actually something you can reliably count on. Calling concord a "risk" should deprive you from using word "smart". But since you're a gankbear, you shouldn't use "risk" either...

Secondly, ganking is only as EXTREMELY easy as people ARE FORCED to make it for you, because there is no alternative to a freighter and no alternative to what you haul - you haul what you have to. There is no alternative to a route either. Just how much easier could it be?

Thirdly, I have seen 10 billion isk killmails which drop 11 billion, due to price calculator and jita price difference.

Gankbears being stupid lazy risk-averse crybabies as usual.


As opposed to a freighter pilot who thinks he should be able to ship 10 billion at a time in safetyRoll
Dave Stark
#833 - 2014-05-18 17:51:41 UTC
oh stop saying there's 0 risk, it's false, and every time some one says it we have to wheel out the same old argument to prove them wrong.

instead of being wrong; just stop derailing the thread.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#834 - 2014-05-18 17:52:23 UTC
"Risk".

As in "possibility of incurring loss".

Just because it's a 100% possibility does not mean that the loss isn't there. It doesn't mean the loss doesn't count.

And as for this hilarious statement:

Digger Pollard wrote:

Secondly, ganking is only as EXTREMELY easy as people ARE FORCED to make it for you, because there is no alternative to a freighter and no alternative to what you haul - you haul what you have to. There is no alternative to a route either. Just how much easier could it be?



You are not forced to do anything. There is no game mechanic forcing you to put too much isk into your cargohold, and no game mechanic that forces you to autopilot.

And there is certainly no game mechanic forcing you to not use a web escort.

Those things are all choices you make.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#835 - 2014-05-18 17:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Digger Pollard wrote:
First of all, it's zero. You know about concord, so it's not a risk, it's actually something you can reliably count on.
…and that doesn't preclude it from being a risk (especially since it isn't a 100% chance).

Quote:
Secondly, ganking is only as EXTREMELY easy as people ARE FORCED to make it for you, because there is no alternative to a freighter and no alternative to what you haul - you haul what you have to.
There are plenty of alternatives in what you haul, how much of it you haul, what you haul it in, what route you take (yes, there are alternatives), how you fly that route, what protections you bring along etc etc etc. No-one is forcing you to do anything.

Quote:
Thirdly, I have seen 10 billion isk killmails which drop 11 billion, due to price calculator and jita price difference.
That just proves that the risks are huge.

No matter what, any attempt at framing ganking as risk free is inherently ignorant and rather disqualifies anyone who makes that kind of claim from taking part of the discussion since they are so unfamiliar with the topic.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#836 - 2014-05-18 17:57:09 UTC
1risk noun \ˈrisk\
: the possibility that something bad or unpleasant (such as an injury or a loss) will happen

: someone or something that may cause something bad or unpleasant to happen

: a person or thing that someone judges to be a good or bad choice for insurance, a loan, etc.

All 3 of those definitions rely on an unkown outcome

Possibilty, may and judges

Will, shall and certainly are in a different category altogether
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#837 - 2014-05-18 18:03:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The vast bulk of people will never be ganked.

Stop squirming, for your own sake.

Completely empty freighters are being ganked in Isanamo at regular intervals 'for the lulz' or RP reasons. For your original statement to be true, then there needs to be 500'000 individual freighter pilots active in space at least once per year, just for a single gank like that. Even that cannot be true.

If you have better statistics available than the reference I provided, including hard facts on number of freighter trips made in EVE per year, then I wouldn't mind helping to calculate the exact chance of being ganked per trip.

Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EvE-oconomy and o-kay for you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#838 - 2014-05-18 18:03:33 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
1risk noun \ˈrisk\
: the possibility that something bad or unpleasant (such as an injury or a loss) will happen

: someone or something that may cause something bad or unpleasant to happen

: a person or thing that someone judges to be a good or bad choice for insurance, a loan, etc.

All 3 of those definitions rely on an unkown outcome

Possibilty, may and judges

Will, shall and certainly are in a different category altogether


You may not kill the target.

You might not get the drop.

You might be attacked at any time.

You own freighter may be attacked and killed.

And then we have all of the punishments for attacking someone in high sec.
Dave Stark
#839 - 2014-05-18 18:03:55 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
All 3 of those definitions rely on an unkown outcome

wrong.
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#840 - 2014-05-18 18:04:07 UTC
Did anyone take a look at that post I made a while back suggesting the use of subsystems instead of rigs? It would allow Freighters & JFs to be customized differently, permit JFs to be given rage / fuel consumption modifications without affecting any other capitals and avoid needing an across-the-board nerf to prevent freighters from over-excelling in any one area because the trade-offs are built into the subsystems.

Seems like an elegant solution to many of the concerns raised in this thread.