These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

First post First post First post
Author
Cynric Cobon-Han
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2661 - 2014-06-07 20:26:15 UTC
I believe the best game change is to scrap jump freighters completely and go back to the old caravan fleets. No need for all these rebalancing moves with the attendant whining that accompanies always these types of changes.

LIKE THIS POST
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2662 - 2014-06-07 20:45:29 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:


If you take a regular CC for gate-gate travel with a JF and you are forced to jump to a cyno, and even more so after Crius, you pay a lot more ISK than you get reward. Ganker win. Once the gank has started, you cannot even escape because you are warp disrupted. Gank either succeeds and you lose your ship, CC, collateral and maybe even your pod, or gank fails, your ship survives, but you have immense repair cost. Ganker win. If you bring valuable good to a hub and you are being ganked, you lose either your/your alliance members' months of ratting and collecting or in case of a jump back to a cyno, reduce their profits considerably. Ganker win. Or take valuable minerals to transport to your production plant, something that, thanks to CCP's wisdom, is going to happen very often in the future: if you need to jump out, your margins are reduced in the best or gone in the worse case. Ganker win.


Herr Wilkus wrote:
Result: massive buff for haulers and nerf for gankers. Highsec needed to be even safer? Really?


It is not getting any safer with these changes. A tiny little bit more convenient for haulers, but by far not safer. However, I refuse to accept that activities, which are supposed take place in Low sec and 00 sec, should be even easier to do in High sec than it already is the case. If you want to annoy people, do it where everyone is supposed to live and have this kind of pleasure.


You are talking to player whose income derives from flying freighters through 0.5 chokepoints - so don't think you are fooling anybody when you talk about how "this isn't a buff". I've even lost two freighters in Uedama.

An 720K EHP Anshar fit with Bulkheads - or this 1 Million+ EHP Ark fit I've been seeing are as good as gankproof, flying AFK or no - as long as you keep the cargo under 7-8 Billion. And jumping out remains an option if you want to move more.

The only way you'd get popped is if someone was willing to take a large loss to make an example of you. This simply doesn't happen if gankers are trying to turn a profit.

Your examples of 'gankers winning' are highly specious.

OK, you loaded 10 Billion on your pre-buff JF and got the attention of a gank squad in Uedama. Mach bumps you, and you happened to notice it.

Oh, damn - you have to cyno out. That costs you what? 800 Isotopes to Kubinen or a nearby system? Less? Yeah, that isn't even a rounding error compared to the (very conservative) 1 Billion or so you'll earn from moving that kind of cargo load to a hub. Gankers will have to pick a new target.

Failed gank repair costs? Again - Insignificant compared to the profit you earn off of hauling that huge cargo load. And thats if you pay for the repairs, a logi can fix that up for you with no out-of-pocket expense. (And, yes your cargo had to be huge - otherwise you wouldn't get bumped in the first place....) Plus, the gankers just lost hundreds of millions, or even billions in the gank attempt. Sounds more like a win for you.

OK, suppose the gankers killed you but no cargo dropped, or was stolen. You BOTH lose. Sure, you lose more, but gankers can't buy PLEX, or a new Talos with just killmails, and a great deal of time and energy was wasted, as their fleet is much larger.

Only case where 'for profit' gankers really 'win' is when all the conditions involving looting are met.

-Freighter carrying enough to be profitably ganked shows up and is located with a scout.
-Freighter fails to escape, jump out , or be rescued. (and most of these precautions only require the efforts of 1 + an alt.)
-Cargo drops. (random)
-Cargo is recovered. (depends on 3rd parties, who may simply steal valuable cargo in fast ships - or simply blow up the wreck to deny it to anybody - and these people do not need fleets to be effective, motivated individuals are enough)

And lets face it, freighter pilots 'win' just about 99.9 % of the time, as they are rarely ganked on any given trip, and almost never ganked if they stay out of 0.5 systems. (Burn Jita the only notable exception)

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2663 - 2014-06-07 20:49:38 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:


Considering that, A) Jump Freighters were already 100% safe.


If they were 100% safe before patch and are 100% safe after, then these changes are irrelevant and you have nothing to complain about.


Nope. Don't be stupid.



I'm not the one claiming anything is 100% safe anywhere.


Deal with the substance of what I wrote - and not with the fact that qualifying the exact percentage of 'safety' JF freighters have in post after post gets tiresome.

Being pedantic is the easy way out.
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2664 - 2014-06-07 22:48:08 UTC
Why not make a T3 freighter with more customization?

First it would get wormholes active again. Second you could custom fit your T3 freighter for either speed, agility, more cargo, or interdiction (Without the use of warp core stabes of corse)

I haven't put a whole lot of thought into it yet but think of it for a bit
Valterra Craven
#2665 - 2014-06-08 05:44:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Herr Wilkus wrote:


Deal with the substance of what I wrote - and not with the fact that qualifying the exact percentage of 'safety' JF freighters have in post after post gets tiresome.

Being pedantic is the easy way out.


Well if you had had substance in your post I would have responded to it.

You still have yet to counter the simple argument that if "balance" is not isk vs isk (aka how much did I pour into my JF, vs how much do cats cost) then "balance" is also not how many player its takes to kill something. If that were the case then we'd run into the EHP scope getting insane.

I'll give you a really good example. The damnation. Last year when they were rebalancing commands ships, and they also said that at some point commands ships will be on grid, that whole thread was nothing but bitching moaning about how OP the damnation was because of its possible EHP and its better survival ratios in fleets.

Regardless of whether they were right or wrong, CCP told them that they weren't getting into an EHP spiral. My point in all this is to say that CCP doesn't balance on how many ships it takes to kill one, and they also don't balance on the isk totals of all ships involved. Put simply: come up with a better argument.

Edit: I even figured I'd link you exactly what I'm talking about here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3508998#post3508998
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#2666 - 2014-06-08 16:48:00 UTC
People seem to be going on a lot about the Jump Freighters. Isn't it true that the ordinary Freighters have come off far worse?
Wyatt Kuha
Triangulum Special Services
#2667 - 2014-06-08 18:34:55 UTC
The Jump Freighter nerf is ridiculous. You take the time to build up 6-8 Billion ISK for a JF and later get cargo space cut by half. I don't see any alternative other than selling the Jump Freighter because it is no longer profitable to carry half the cargo with higher costs with twice the trips to move the same amount of cargo. There is stupid and just plain stupid. You decide which is the better adjective.

The Jump Freighters are what hauls the sub-cap ships and supplies, moon goo, the fuel and ordinance to run the capitals. I don't see how EvE will have massive null-sec battles with supplies choked off. Was this a nerf really intended to buy CCP some time to fix all the nagging time dilation issues?

It will be interesting to see how the reduced supply lines to null-sec will impact motivation to challenge sovereignty. It seems that corps will spend more time on industry and care-bearing instead. I hope I am wrong.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2668 - 2014-06-08 19:24:41 UTC
Wyatt Kuha wrote:
The Jump Freighter nerf is ridiculous. You take the time to build up 6-8 Billion ISK for a JF and later get cargo space cut by half. I don't see any alternative other than selling the Jump Freighter because it is no longer profitable to carry half the cargo with higher costs with twice the trips to move the same amount of cargo. There is stupid and just plain stupid. You decide which is the better adjective.

The Jump Freighters are what hauls the sub-cap ships and supplies, moon goo, the fuel and ordinance to run the capitals. I don't see how EvE will have massive null-sec battles with supplies choked off. Was this a nerf really intended to buy CCP some time to fix all the nagging time dilation issues?

It will be interesting to see how the reduced supply lines to null-sec will impact motivation to challenge sovereignty. It seems that corps will spend more time on industry and care-bearing instead. I hope I am wrong.


I've heard there is this module that expands your cargo allowance. Maybe you should try using them, I did and now I can carry more cargo than before, if I like. Or have double EHP, if I like. Or nearly 40% faster alignment.

Or are you just bitching because you can't have all those things simultaneously??
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2669 - 2014-06-08 20:06:01 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:


You still have yet to counter the simple argument that if "balance" is not isk vs isk (aka how much did I pour into my JF, vs how much do cats cost) then "balance" is also not how many player its takes to kill something. If that were the case then we'd run into the EHP scope getting insane.


You just seem to put an awful lot of stock into "I paid 8 Billion for this ship, no fair it can be killed by less than 70 gankers. I 700K+ EHP = balance."

I'm merely pointing out that Jump Freighters, pre-patch have the tools to escape 99% of all ganks to begin with. It just requires the freighter pilot jump out when they find themselves getting bumped. Why do you feel entitled to such ridiculous EHP values when the tools for escape are already present? Or do you simply find taking precautions 'annoying' and want the game to be easier? Easier might seem like 'more profitable' in the short term, but there is no free lunch. Easy, safe, AFK highsec logistics hurts the game far more than ganking ever will - as price gradients flatten out across Empire.

The balance of power between freighters and gank squads has been remarkably stable over the years.
The amount of firepower that gank ships generate hasn't swung rapidly one way or the other.

Mild buffs (10% DPS) to hybrids had increased effectiveness of blasters, and the T3 class was introduced. However, insurance for gankers was also removed, leaving the ground remarkably level - as battleships were no longer economical to use for these purposes. Last years balance round of ganking ships left them either nerfed or with DPS neutral modifications.

The only recent major shift? CCP halving Concord Response time in 2008, which effectively doubled the amount of firepower and the cost required, which forced gankers to HTFU and get more organized. Which they did.

Now, freighters have effectively had their EHP doubled (or more) in this patch. So did DSTs and Orcas. And this on the heels of a massive EHP buff to the Exhumer/Mining Barge class. Thus, the cost of ganking has again been unilaterally increased.

In light of the relative rarity of freighter ganking - why was this necessary? To placate the freighter pilots who got themselves illed? Theme park mentality.




Ramona Quimby
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2670 - 2014-06-08 23:47:23 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
[quote=Valterra Craven]


In light of the relative rarity of freighter ganking - why was this necessary? T




http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/06/kills-of-week-battle-of-aufay.html

Behold, the first freighter to be suicide ganked after the Kronos "expansion" went live. CCP's long-awaited nerf to freighter ganking was implemented by buffing freighter EHP at the expense of cargo space, and giving freighter pilots fitting options. It was all for nothing. The New Order has already become too powerful. Saturated by anti-matter delivered by our terror weapons, the post-Kronos freighters went pop, just like the ones who came before.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N9k158Gbxwg/U5TWDE1xi1I/AAAAAAAAZo8/qrJ986nCn9Y/s1600/comment.png

45 freighters, 3 jump freighters, 10 Orcas, and numerous other bot-aspirants were killed in Aufay in the name of the Code. The damage is estimated at more than 200 billion isk, all in one week. The freighter count rivals that of the first Burn Jita in 2012 (though they also killed a dozen jump freighters).


Mag's
Azn Empire
#2671 - 2014-06-09 01:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Ramona Quimby wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
[quote=Valterra Craven]


In light of the relative rarity of freighter ganking - why was this necessary? T




http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/06/kills-of-week-battle-of-aufay.html

Behold, the first freighter to be suicide ganked after the Kronos "expansion" went live. CCP's long-awaited nerf to freighter ganking was implemented by buffing freighter EHP at the expense of cargo space, and giving freighter pilots fitting options. It was all for nothing. The New Order has already become too powerful. Saturated by anti-matter delivered by our terror weapons, the post-Kronos freighters went pop, just like the ones who came before.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N9k158Gbxwg/U5TWDE1xi1I/AAAAAAAAZo8/qrJ986nCn9Y/s1600/comment.png

45 freighters, 3 jump freighters, 10 Orcas, and numerous other bot-aspirants were killed in Aufay in the name of the Code. The damage is estimated at more than 200 billion isk, all in one week. The freighter count rivals that of the first Burn Jita in 2012 (though they also killed a dozen jump freighters).



Only 18 of those Freighters were a part of this change.

7 Charons
5 Obelisks
5 Fenrir
1 Providence

1 chose not to fit anything.
5 decided to fit for full cargo.
3 chose 2 cargo expanders and either an Inertia stab, or nanofiber.
1 chose 1 cargo and 2 local stabs.
1 chose all stabs.
2 chose all nanofibers.
1 chose 2 local stabs and a nanofiber.
2 chose 2 stabs II and 1 bulk II.
1 fitted all Bulkhead II
1 chose 3 armour tank mods. Experimental Explosive plating I, Refuge Adaptive nano plating I and an Elemental Kinetic Plating I

So out of those 18, only 4 chose some tank and out of those only 2 chose all tank. But then only one went with all bulkheads.
The one with all bulkheads was moving 3.6 billion in cargo and the armour pilot 5.9.

Out of the 3 jump freighters, only 1 was in the change period and he didn't fit a thing.

So yes, I would say all is well. Most haulers are not thinking straight and many of then are fitting for full cargo. Isn't that a surprise. Roll

If there is an increase after this change, in what is now considered a rather rare act, then the blame can only point one way. (Hint, it's not the gankers fault.)

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Valterra Craven
#2672 - 2014-06-09 02:25:38 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


You still have yet to counter the simple argument that if "balance" is not isk vs isk (aka how much did I pour into my JF, vs how much do cats cost) then "balance" is also not how many player its takes to kill something. If that were the case then we'd run into the EHP scope getting insane.


You just seem to put an awful lot of stock into "I paid 8 Billion for this ship, no fair it can be killed by less than 70 gankers. I 700K+ EHP = balance."



You seem to be under the mistaken impression that my arguments are advocating any sort of change to making ganking harder. I'm not. I don't care about the HP of jfs (Don't own one and likely never well) nor do I care about the HP of any other changes. You were whining about the changes that effected you negatively and my posts were merely to point this out to you. If balance can't be about isk vs isk then it similarly can't be about number of players on a target. CCP has stated that's not how they balance, so regardless of whatever your feelings are on the matter, your posts aren't going to change that. If you have data and reasonable arguments, then please by all means state them, but as it stands your posts are no different than others complaining about the nerfs that freighters just got.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2673 - 2014-06-09 02:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Mag's wrote:

Only 18 of those Freighters were a part of this change.

7 Charons
5 Obelisks
5 Fenrir
1 Providence

1 chose not to fit anything.
5 decided to fit for full cargo.
3 chose 2 cargo expanders and either an Inertia stab, or nanofiber.
1 chose 1 cargo and 2 local stabs.
1 chose all stabs.
2 chose all nanofibers.
1 chose 2 local stabs and a nanofiber.
2 chose 2 stabs II and 1 bulk II.
1 fitted all Bulkhead II
1 chose 3 armour tank mods. Experimental Explosive plating I, Refuge Adaptive nano plating I and an Elemental Kinetic Plating I

So out of those 18, only 4 chose some tank and out of those only 2 chose all tank. But then only one went with all bulkheads.
The one with all bulkheads was moving 3.6 billion in cargo and the armour pilot 5.9.

Out of the 3 jump freighters, only 1 was in the change period and he didn't fit a thing.

So yes, I would say all is well. Most haulers are not thinking straight and many of then are fitting for full cargo. Isn't that a surprise. Roll

If there is an increase after this change, in what is now considered a rather rare act, then the blame can only point one way. (Hint, it's not the gankers fault.)


Excellent post. I was curious to hear from the field how freighter pilots were adapting to this new situation.
My guess is there will be some adjustment over time, as many of them are probably just now realizing that freighters now have low slots.

I also figured that, as far as carebears go - freighter pilots are marginally more savvy than miners - and less likely to failfit.
I could be wrong, (one never went broke underestimating carebear intelligence) but good fitting habits don't always happen overnight. It will be interesting to see if fittings change over time via osmosis.

Of course, its quite natural that when sampling 'freighters killed in ganks' that the majority of them will likely be of the cargo variety, as well tanked freighters are simply less likely to show up as a killmail.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#2674 - 2014-06-09 08:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Excellent post. I was curious to hear from the field how freighter pilots were adapting to this new situation.
My guess is there will be some adjustment over time, as many of them are probably just now realizing that freighters now have low slots.

I also figured that, as far as carebears go - freighter pilots are marginally more savvy than miners - and less likely to failfit.
I could be wrong, (one never went broke underestimating carebear intelligence) but good fitting habits don't always happen overnight. It will be interesting to see if fittings change over time via osmosis.

Of course, its quite natural that when sampling 'freighters killed in ganks' that the majority of them will likely be of the cargo variety, as well tanked freighters are simply less likely to show up as a killmail.
Thank you. I simply pulled all that info from the kill boards and was not actually 'on the field' so to speak. Saying 45 freighters and 3 jump freighters etc etc, doesn't tell you a thing tbh. So I thought I should actually decipher the true numbers.

Those kills are from one of Code's 'events', so my guess is they killed everything that they could. If this is indeed the case, we are seeing an actual snapshot of what people were fitting then and not simply ones they deemed easy and/or profitable.

I agree it's early days and this is why I didn't make much of those 2 without any fittings at all. But I do think we'll see plenty with reduced EHP, for one reason or another from now on. This may lead to an increase in freighter ganks, only time will tell. But as I said, the blame if it does can only point one way.

I do think haulers got off rather lightly with this change, it could have been far worse. In fact, I would say they did rather well. I wouldn't at all be surprised at another balance pass at some later date, with reduced stats.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Sarrein Razor
RazorEnterprise
#2675 - 2014-06-09 19:40:51 UTC
No matter how u twist and turn it, this is a nerf to freighters.

If i fit Expanders (to get on cargo what they used to have), my travel time increases because of the Expanders malus on (sublight)speed.

Do if for tank, my cargo gets gimped even more (Bulkheads) or it stays at least gimped with the new defaults while gaining only very limited benefit (Nano Plates). Same for intertia stabs, nano, etc.

So, tell me in what way do these changes benefit me. I use my Providence almost exclusively to haul ores. Its ability to do that has been greatly affected by this changes in negative way. It takes longer to move the same amount no matter what i fit.

Not to mention that gankers still have the upper hand in any configuration, so freighterganks never realy got addressed as a whole from my point of view.

And JFs are utterly crap now and will be further gimped when the changes to fuel comsumption come.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
#2676 - 2014-06-09 21:59:35 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Excellent post. I was curious to hear from the field how freighter pilots were adapting to this new situation.
My guess is there will be some adjustment over time, as many of them are probably just now realizing that freighters now have low slots.

I also figured that, as far as carebears go - freighter pilots are marginally more savvy than miners - and less likely to failfit.
I could be wrong, (one never went broke underestimating carebear intelligence) but good fitting habits don't always happen overnight. It will be interesting to see if fittings change over time via osmosis.

Of course, its quite natural that when sampling 'freighters killed in ganks' that the majority of them will likely be of the cargo variety, as well tanked freighters are simply less likely to show up as a killmail.
Thank you. I simply pulled all that info from the kill boards and was not actually 'on the field' so to speak. Saying 45 freighters and 3 jump freighters etc etc, doesn't tell you a thing tbh. So I thought I should actually decipher the true numbers.

Those kills are from one of Code's 'events', so my guess is they killed everything that they could. If this is indeed the case, we are seeing an actual view of what people were fitting then and not simply ones they deemed easy and/or profitable.

I agree it's early days and this is why I didn't make much of those 2 without any fittings at all. But I do think we'll see plenty with reduced EHP, for one reason or another from now on. This may lead to an increase in freighter ganks, only time will tell. But as I said, the blame if it does can only point one way.

I do think haulers got off rather lightly with this change, it could have been far worse. In fact, I would say they did rather well. I wouldn't at all be surprised at another balance pass at some later date, with reduced stats.


maybe but that still leaves the question why would any freighter pilot now use the charon or fenrir both cannot be tanked efficiently compared to the armor ones
Mag's
Azn Empire
#2677 - 2014-06-09 22:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Thank you. I simply pulled all that info from the kill boards and was not actually 'on the field' so to speak. Saying 45 freighters and 3 jump freighters etc etc, doesn't tell you a thing tbh. So I thought I should actually decipher the true numbers.

Those kills are from one of Code's 'events', so my guess is they killed everything that they could. If this is indeed the case, we are seeing an actual snapshot of what people were fitting then and not simply ones they deemed easy and/or profitable.

I agree it's early days and this is why I didn't make much of those 2 without any fittings at all. But I do think we'll see plenty with reduced EHP, for one reason or another from now on. This may lead to an increase in freighter ganks, only time will tell. But as I said, the blame if it does can only point one way.

I do think haulers got off rather lightly with this change, it could have been far worse. In fact, I would say they did rather well. I wouldn't at all be surprised at another balance pass at some later date, with reduced stats.


maybe but that still leaves the question why would any freighter pilot now use the charon or fenrir both cannot be tanked efficiently compared to the armor ones
Oh I agree. The first iteration was rigs, but this was obviously flawed so slots took their place. But either way freighters were going to be nerfed one way or another, I just think pilots were lucky it wasn't worse than it is.

And yes, certain ones got the short straw. But that's what happens with rushed, poorly thought out ideas.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Lord Fudo
Doomheim
#2678 - 2014-06-10 03:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Fudo
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
People seem to be going on a lot about the Jump Freighters. Isn't it true that the ordinary Freighters have come off far worse?


Freighter changes suck. They should have left them alone. I dont even want to fly mine anymore. Except to a trade hub to sell it.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#2679 - 2014-06-10 18:53:41 UTC
Exactly. If anything, freighter alts moving low value stuff might as well be npcs.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#2680 - 2014-06-10 21:30:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
Please remove ability to fit adaptive nanoplating to jump freighters.

It is gamebreaking.

http://i.imgur.com/9UIlILF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pwy4m8U.jpg

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.