Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Thank you Dracvlad, very kind of you.




Well, I've been waiting a decade plus and they still haven't figured out the basic problems, or don't want to listen. Either way, out of our control.




Very nice to have opinions. May I ask what you base that on? I can base my proofs on cold hard maths, not that CCP listen that much to it.

As I have stated before, most people involved in industrial effort (or what they call of it) cannot arrive at an accurate calculation of cost. I'm sure I will hear lots of people shout, but I can and am willing to prove my statements with figures, but you may be surprised how long the proofs can be.

I and my team have made many billions in actual true profit in the game, before continual price depreciation and constant market entropy became massively significant factors that we stropped wasting our time. I know there are items out there which are still profitable, some T2 ones, but most T1 items (which is where new entries to market are) are not profitable, and ironically the larger you go the bigger the investment, the greater profit you believe people would insist upon. Unfortunately, that is just plain incorrect as an assumption (and we all know what phrases are out there warning us about assumptions).

I did the maths last night, on a previously truely industrial involvement with investors that we took part in. I updated the figures last night using the Jita buy prices for Minerals, and based on the CURRENT Sell prices of the eventual items in Jita (invalid assumptions, as fails to account for speed of depreciation in eve of both source materials pricing and sales achievable prices).

Case Study Time:
I will warn you, this is a very old case study, for which I have already proven to the Investors to get out of the market and do something else, but for which I have updated the figures purely for this discussion.

The industrial example I am discussing had a initial investment by interested Investors of approximately 30-31 billion in BPO's.

The Task:
Industrial production of Charon and Orca ships, continual and rolling.

Objectives:
Production of all associated capital components for and including the production of 1 Charon and 12 Orcas every 18.65 days, lets round that up to 19 shall we and profit from those ships.

In reality components were in parallel production for the next builds, so realistically it was a 9.88 day turn around for the ships if components were constantly in factories.

Initial Assumptions:
For this example and discussion ONLY, I have made certain assumptions (many of which are incorrect, I warn you).

• We purchase at Jita buy prices so as to ensure a regular and consistent supply. Other local purchasing attempts were made, but historically were proven to take far too long to be fulfilled to allow for continual rolling productoin.
• We did not pay for haulage of the materials and account for this in additional cost. (Actually this is incorrect, as we operated as capitalist and paid all our haulers for their services, but I fear that would simply prove too taxing calculation wise to include). We have long operated out of the major hubs in an attempt to spread the industrial effort.
• We got the Current Jita Sales price for the items instantly on ending production, Without payment for additional haulage to market.

Jita Buy Price's for Materials as of 2014-05-22T0019
Tritanium 5.85
Pyerite 12.41
Mexallon 50
Isogen 135.13
Nocxium 750.02
Zydrine 676
Megacyte 1537

Quantities Moved Every 8.5 days:
Tritanium 630,190,688
Pyerite 93,588,313
Mexallon 33,383,805
Isogen 5,026,018
Nocxium 1,438,380
Zydrine 239,218
Megacyte 89,535

Total 763,955,957
m3 to move: 7,639,559.57
Existing Maxed Charon: 981,250 m3
Total Loads: 7.79, round up to 8


Jita Sales Price's as of 2014-05-22T0019
Charon: 1,370,000,000.00
Orca: 638,879,999.85

I have proven my figures to others before, and I'm sure others will shout to try to claim I am incorrect here, but again I refer to my earlier statements about most industrialist.

These figures even have factory production associated and all other market related costs included:

Final Sales Cost Profit / Unit Margin Profit / Factory Hour
Charon: 1,290,823,860.50 79,176,139.50 6.133% 2,778.93
Orca: 623,146,338.65 15,733,661.20 2.525% 1,104.86


Total Profit / Batch: 267,980,073.85

Batches to Recover Investment: > 2,000
Time to Recover Investment: > 37,295 days!

BEFORE you have recovered the investment costs, you have made no actual profit!! Simple business fact.


Reader Tasks:
Now I will leave you Add Real haulage costs both ways, and the increase for increased quantities of hauling and recalculate your impact on profit etc.


So how are we going to distribute the market in Eve if we can't even move the materials from supply (Miners or re-sellers) to distributed demand with the new industrial system?

Thank God. For years all of we were expecting that.
Maybe this is the end of Ganking freighters
in high sec

That will never end. But it will raise the safe for transport value of goods. And that is a good thing.

You can produce almost eveythign in 0.0 As long as peopel do exaclty what they want. MOVE RESOURSE aquisition and industry core to 0.0. Their actiosn are perfeclty in line with their stated desires.

Dont nit pick. You know very well that he means it will make harder to gank freighters of people wantign to reduce that risk. Simple option of bulkheads pushes the line where it is profitable to gank certain freighters.

That's something I was asking my self, even more after they switched from rigs to low-slots. Why shouldn't freighter be like every other ship? I really would like to kill a Freighter with 3x cargo expander rigs + cargo expander in the lowslots

Tbh while the current changes go into the right direction, there is simply no reason not to make Freighters/Jumpfreighters "normal" ships with Low/Med/High/Rig Slots in a forseeable future.

It is not that hard to balance the base stats to make them useful for their purpose and then just let the players decide how much cargo/tank/speed they want to fit on the ship.

It would even offer the possibility, to add more specialized freighters in the future (like you did for the industrials). I can imagine, for some corps a specialized Ore/Mineral Freighter or a Specialized Fuel Freighter will be quite useful. Fine thing, just give them Special Bays and give the usage and fitting into players hands.

Seems like a weird + lazy change. Why not give them proper powergrid and cpu, a few mid slots, and then balance the HP+cargo?

Giving a capital-class ship laughable levels of CPU and PG just screams un-intuitive and contrived. Special for no good reason.

I would speculate that one of the reasons why armor seems to be at advantage is that remote shield reps hit at the beginning of the cycle while remote armor reps hit at the end of the cycle. So in a theoretical gank scenario of a shield vs armor freighter escorted by some logi they might end up roughly similar as shield guys should be able to get in an extra cycle.

Although I personally would just use something with sufficient web bonus and try to be faster with webs than gankers can with a point if I would have already something flying with the freighter.

I'll give you a couple of reasons why capitals should stay out of highsec and I'm not even going to touch supers and titans:
- capital production spam in highsec... we simply don't need that;
- you can't add capitals to highsec without adding their main mean of travel - cynos in highsec. You don't want to open that can of worms;
- Wars in higsec against lower skilled/newer characters... I was looking for the appropriate term and Urban dictionary told me "roflstomped".
- Remote SB/TE Naglfars somewhere in a general area of a station where war targets are ;
- Fighters in higsec *cringe*;
- ...