Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I currently own two POS' which I use exclusively for research. And yet I am in agreement that this does not properly represent the risk vs. reward nature that EVE advertises.

Am I saddened by the fact that I can no longer cook billions of isk worth of blueprints simultaneously with no risk of losing anything more than time? Of course.

Do I think that it is a better change for Eve as a whole? Absolutely. Sorry OP, but even as a HS carebear, I am in favor of this change.

Or just put the pos so deep in BFE no wants the moon its on.



Well that and to some empire pos owners I can say...welcome to eve. Look on the bright side, you aren't sweating a baby mommie or titan in the csaa. Leaves your really stuck. Kill the job and billions upon billions just vaporizes. Defence goes bad....well some take great joy in killing unfinished titans. Even better if not paid for yet...owning corp just took a nice hit to the profits.

Ohh and op by proper pos they mean large with deathstar ability (I will be nice to the empire pos owners who are going however shall we get by). Or go or FU style pos (jams and scrams....rotate the jams so the bs are after an hour going what the f...... this is getting real annoying).

I have known many empire pos owners go deathstar mode in war decs. Wars last about 2-3 days. it be the mercs who call the war....they didn't plan on losing handfuls of BS' to a deathstar in empire. Don't know how to make a deathster, google 0.0 fits of them.

Seriously copy times are going to be reduced a shitload!!!

Risk = Isk.

stop crying and start adapting!!!

OP failed to notice that slots are being removed altogether, so he'll always be able to research a BPO in any station with research facilities with no waiting time.

The reason why we used to be able to research our Blueprints from the confines of an NPC Station and use the POS research slots remotely is because of a few things. Conducting Remote Research is a Reward but is justified.

1) The fact that it takes forever, months of grinding mission after mission over and over and over and over again until your brain hurts -- then going back the next day and doing it all over again. In the meantime not much else gets accomplished or completed. = Risk

2) Or if you chose to hire someone to boost your standings not only does your corporation activities get put on a week hold but that person knows your putting up a POS and if desired could take action against you or simply not return the corporation. = Risk

3) You still had the option to War Dec that corporation and putting a fleet together to destroy the POS thus removing their ability to complete the research and the jobs that did not finish are not improved at all and the research time has to start all over. = Risk

4) When making copies those BPC's were stored in the Lab, thus vulnerable to loss. = Risk

5) A POS requires to be defended, maintained, and fueled which requires money and time to be invested for continuous operation. All the while these Ice Belts went from being completely abundant to very limited and concentrated to less number of systems. = Risk

6) If an owner forgets to re-fuel the tower in time the POS becomes completely defenseless as the offensive and defensive measures are not active. = Risk


I've just shown you why the current system is not broken. Tell me how the system of researching to a POS while storing your Blueprints in an NPC Station is not operating within the Risk vs. Reward ratio philosophy?


Clearly, the risks completely outweigh the rewards and that was before the June or July expansion is deployed. Kronos, and subsequent expansions, as announced, only widens that gap of being more risky, unnecessarily.

Keep in mind I've not mentioned the negative aspects to the ship rebalancing or the reduced yield from refining Ore & Ice come with the Kronos, and subsequent, expansion(s). Just all the more justification to keep the ability to conduct research remotely while storing blueprints inside the NPC station needs to stay.


This is not a cry for change but merely a discussion about why to keep this feature. For those who think this is anything but a reasonable and logically sound discussion merely choses to fuel that belief at their own discretion and accord; and is not the accurate view of the original post.

If you thought I was single-handedly accusing you then I apologize, but you weren't the only one who said they research and agreed with the removal of this feature. I hope you aren't taking this personally as I was just making a point, being that removal of this feature is unnecessary and doesn't make sense to remove. Also, nobody forced you to volunteer any information or to even make the reply but I do appreciate your feedback.

I don't need to see any information nor would I go after anyone who doesn't agree with me from a forum post. I'm not that petty. As far as anyone who reads this I wouldn't worry about getting sought out as I don't think someone would chose to do so simply from your statement on here alone. I guess more people that do research see that as a problem as well and is probably why this conversation has been mostly one-sided thus far.

Don't be afraid of what people will do in game, if you want to give your thoughts do so. If someone targets you in game then fight back. This is just a game and we should all be able to have fun within the rules and the mechanics of the game. If you want to do more than that then convenience the developers to change the game--hence what this post is all about. I'm just trying to point out the deficiencies of the upcoming expansions this Summer.

I think your statement of: "You feel the benefits of POS based S&I are not worth the increased risks given BPO's at a POS." is completely true. For sure it is not worth taking on additional risks for roughly the same reward. Some of the risks could be classified as efforts and while I know some of them can be mitigated was just proving there is risk in the current system. I don't know what the majority of people feel yet but would like to find out. I think over time we will get a better sample and the active discussion is good as it keeps the conversation going.

I'm willing to see how the removal of this feature is after the expansion is rolled out but still won't change my mind or point of view. I also remember how the Unified Inventory was a complete and utter failure after it was when first rolled so I know what it takes to reverse a change. While we still have the Unified Inventory window it is much more like the previous windows in how it operates and functions. People made their points and had a discussion thus we got a good product that was a good compromise of the old window and the new window layout and functionality. I am hoping for the same result here with the Remote Researching feature. I do realize that CCP can always make a change and is why I wanted to stand against the removal of the remote research feature.

Furthermore, I still am unclear why you are in support of not being able to conduct your research remotely while still storing them in the NPC station. Maybe you could elaborate on it a bit more without giving away any confidential or sensitive information? You have not mentioned anything about the prices of office rental or availability of office slots which are both reasonable points in your defense.

You can still believe in the Risk vs. Reward and Effort vs. Reward ideologies while still enjoying keeping your blueprints in an NPC station, or at the least give other people the option to enjoy that benefit. Who's to say that given a choice some people will choose to store blueprints in the labs while other people stores them in the NPC station. Why is one way more right then the other? You can store blueprints in the labs right now if you want. Nobody is stopping you. That is what lead me to my original statement of what I said.

I have also not complained about the fact that refined ore will get less mineral output, which is something that will negatively impact a lot of people and the market. I am also in favor of the new slots and research system that introduces higher risk for reward just as you like. All I am asking for is a compromise, wish other people saw it the same.

With the current system, before Kronos expansion, if you want to take on the additional risk feel free to do so, but why should everyone be forced to do the same? You want to launch a POS in a station-less system, go for it. With the removal of this feature there is increased risk or effort, even if some of them can be easily mitigated, without a change to any type of reward. To me, that is why the removal of this feature is unnecessary and doesn't make sense.

To be fair - IIRC you can only cram 28 days of fuel into a tower (but it's been a while since I've been POS-fuel *****).




You should really train "maths" beyond level one.

currently -> Veldspar x 333 = FLOOR((1,000 trit (base) * 1.0 (refine) * (1.0 - [tax])),1) = 1,000

post-Crius (as I believe all of the indy changes have been pulled from Kronos) --> Veldspar x 100 = FLOOR ((415 trit (base) * 3.33 * 0.724 (refine) * (1.0 - [tax])),1) = 1,000 <--- because FLOOR (1000.5 , 1) = 1000.

Note
- we're assuming "tax" to be zero in both cases, along with perfect skills, and the refining implant in a generic 50% base NPC station.
- the 3.33 multiplier is because the batch size is being reduced to 100 units across the boards.
- functions are floored, because all refining maths round down.

Several Reasons:
1.) To maintain uniformity with S&I POS modules. Currently, to do MFG at a POS array involves putting your building materials at the POS. To do invention requires putting decryptors, datacores, and interfaces at the POS. I see no logical reason to keep BPO's elsewhere.

2.) To add additional risks to POS S&I. With the removal of station lines, the number of POS modules you need to run your corps S&I jobs is greatly diminishing. This essentially removes much of the risky "bling" at your POS, and putting BPO's back at the POS helps balance this.

3.) As a conflict driver. There are few reasons to attack a POS in highsec. The 24 hr wardec warning allows players to usually get their POS assets safe, leaving little incentive for an attack. With the potential loot of BPO's, there is more incentive to attack them. While I understand you may not want such attention, I still think it is good for the game to encourage such things.

4.) I hope to profit from it. As someone that is willing to take risks, I hope to improve my profit margins by utilizing POS equipment above and beyond what the risk adverse NPC station builder enjoys.



In the end, you do not want to risk placing your BPO's in a POS. I totally understand this, and truth be told there are some BPO's I'd rather leave safely in station too. However, I don't see why we should get the benefits of POS S&I while keeping our BPO's safely in a station. We can always just use the station when the risk is too much. With the removal of station lines, there is no queue, and main penalty is an increased time to complete a job.

I spent some time calculating the savings from Production and Research at a POS. If you are building ships, or the more expensive t2 items (Nuetron Blaster Cannon II's), you save a significant amount of isk by operating out of a POS. If you are building small items or ammo, you lose isk by operating out of a POS. If they can reduced the MFG times, Copy Times, and Invention times based on module sizes, even ammo and small modules will be profitable.




Ore is getting less mineral output if you have poor skills. For those with good skills, or are willing to refine at a POS, we'll experience IMPROVED mineral yield. The changes also make Ore potentially more valuable as ore rather than as minerals. This is a very interesting change, and I don't believe you know how it will truly impact the market, which means you don't know the positive or negative impact it will have.



Your upset because there is an increased risk to continue operating the same way. Realize that the status quo is dramatically changing though. Don't use a POS if you don't like the risks.

Why do most t2 producers own a POS now? So we can make copies and invent BPC's at a reasonable rate. We cannot truly use NPC station services because the queues are insane. With this change, we can use NPC station services and completely bypass the POS operating expenses. It means we forgo the time efficiency provided by POS modules, but gain the safety of station based services. That will generally be a win for you when you do the math.

Alternatively, you can take the riskier road, and use POS based S&I. This will increase your production rates. On some things, this very much improves your net isk / month. On other items, not so much. I'd petition to improve the rewards long before I'd petition to make it safer.

Dinsdale uses math?

I could have sworn he was asking the Magic 8 Ball for his game related figures.