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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Arec Bardwin
#1061 - 2014-06-02 14:34:58 UTC
"Tooltips ON, tooltips OFF..."
Panterata
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#1062 - 2014-06-02 17:24:02 UTC
Hey Dev,

this is page 54 regarding this issue. How many pages you have for the stupid Kronos patch? We think this issue is more important then Kronos - so stop wasting your time on Kronos and waste your time for turn on/off button
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1063 - 2014-06-02 23:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Varesk
I set the delay for the inspace tool tips to max, now i cannot click on a cluster of objects in space, I have to wait for the tool tips to be displayed before i can click on the object.
cpu939
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#1064 - 2014-06-02 23:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: cpu939
If any Dev is still reading this i would like to ask one simple question.

Why are you unwilling to code an off switch to this?

Page after page of players asking for this, you guys at ccp do know what players are right, they are your customers the people that give you money.

Now if it is to hard to code an off switch please just come out and state that.
If its not, think of how many happy customers you will make and is that not good for the company
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1065 - 2014-06-03 07:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
So that’s pretty much it for this issue, I suspect.

Devs have been busy breaking stuff preparing for Kronos for the last week so no responses, and the next week will be spent fixing the stuff they broke in the patch.

After that it will have been a few weeks since they did anything, or even bothered to respond to this problem so it will have gone off their radar and nothing else will be done.

It’s been the same time after time....

Break something that works
Fiddle around with little bits of the new fantastic system to pretend that you listen
Totally refuse to revert the new crap to the old working system, or even implement changes suggested by players
After a few weeks, ignore it and move on to breaking something else.


Nothing changes. I am so fed up with the way you operate, and I suspect that many feel the same way.

Way to go CCP.
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#1066 - 2014-06-03 12:28:16 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
So that’s pretty much it for this issue, I suspect.

Devs have been busy breaking stuff preparing for Kronos for the last week so no responses, and the next week will be spent fixing the stuff they broke in the patch.

After that it will have been a few weeks since they did anything, or even bothered to respond to this problem so it will have gone off their radar and nothing else will be done.

It’s been the same time after time....

Break something that works
Fiddle around with little bits of the new fantastic system to pretend that you listen
Totally refuse to revert the new crap to the old working system, or even implement changes suggested by players
After a few weeks, ignore it and move on to breaking something else.


Nothing changes. I am so fed up with the way you operate, and I suspect that many feel the same way.

Way to go CCP.


Everyone is clearly simply complaining because new things are bad. Karkur knows this, shes even said as much. You'll get used to it eventually so there is no reason to budge at all on this particular issue. No doubt, when the new "solar" flares go live, there will be equal amounts of complaints about them as well. Because you all just hate "new" things. The new tooltip system is completely fine and doesn't impact gameplay at all! The vast majority of the new tooltips aren't, at best, redundant. The new bracket list isn't completely useless and doesn't make clicking in space completely pointless. In fact, we need MORE tooltips composed of four paragraphs of information to facilitate "non-textual" learning. The EVE UI must be designed so people who've never used a computer before can quickly process the information and easily understand exactly how to play the game. As accessibility simply trumps all other concerns, even the most basic logic.


Honestly, though, once the devs (or anyone, really) start getting defensive, there really is no point in pushing. They're just going to bunker down and wait for the sh!tstorm to pass. They'll rationalize all complaints as being from a vocal minority and simply filter out the most vocal of said minority. Once the issue has been forgotten, they'll declare the implementation a success and move on to add more useless and cumbersome effects to other aspects of the game that desperately do not need them. All for the sake of engaging the new player with worse than useless graphical flourishes.


Ya know, not to sound bitter or anything.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.

marly cortez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1067 - 2014-06-03 13:02:50 UTC
Seems a lot more folk than I imagined agree with the idea that the ability to turn off 'Tool Tips' and 'Mouse overs' is more than just a good idea, yet it is baffling that CCP resists this idea so hard.

We have seen the introduction of a multi level sound selection system, which is a good thing, but even here simply turning them off is allowable obviously because those developing it realized how aggravating the sounds currently are in EVE if left on, a few of the newer ones I can see relevance for as they might prove useful in certain game play areas, but ear candy they are not overall.

Similar with the Tool Tips and Brackets set up, I can see an advantage to slider activated timers for various sectors of that system but overall they remain for the experienced player nothing less than an eyesore and interference in game play and utterly unwarranted again for experienced players, they already, or should, know exactly what everything does and if not then the info is contained in the module stats and can be compared with the comparison tool.

This is not an argument against Tool Tips and Mouse overs, it is a simple request that players be allowed to either adjust there speed up or down, select by sector to do this or simply turn them off by sector if they feel they have no need of them, nothing difficult about it really.

Similar with the system 'Auto Scan' again something not required by players unless they are actually going to use the information provided in the Scan Neo to start with, other than that it is an a warranted graphic load and distraction when the information is already contained in the Scan Neo and cannot be used without referral to that item anyway.

Bling it up if you wish, but please make that same Bling useful in someway rather than distracting., ( Refering to the new CCP doctrine that everything must have a purpose in game play here)....

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.

Arec Bardwin
#1068 - 2014-06-03 14:06:20 UTC
What astonishes me is that CCP decided to dump the old bracket selection (a feature obviously created with a lot of care and effort by someone with actual knowledge of the game) for the new box of death. A feature that probably had zero effort gone into design.

Why not iterate on the old bracket selection?
Panterata
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#1069 - 2014-06-03 19:43:05 UTC
New patch is fail again - 1.2 GB and there is no turn off/on button.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1070 - 2014-06-03 23:07:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Varesk
I am thinking the Devs that made these "tool tips" fall under one of these 3 choices.

1) dont play eve
2) played eve for about 1 hour before they applied to CCP
3) if they do play Eve, they dont undock
4) see 1,2 and 3

Obviously the people that play Eve are in this thread asking for an Off Switch, yet they are playing the "We know what we are doing and we dont care what the players think" card. Also its time to trash the CSM since they wont stand behind the players.
Ibuyyou Kitty
#1071 - 2014-06-04 01:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ibuyyou Kitty
Please listen CCP. I have many accounts. I PLEX and I pay-to-play. Please, give me an off switch. I can not take much more of these pop-ups while running lots of accounts mining ops, pve, pvp etc etc.

Do you CCP folks actually play the same game we are playing? How do you not understand the issues these pop-ups are causing?


When you are constantly clicking and dragging the mouse (thousands and thousands of clicks per hour) you get the idea. It is game breaking for a large majority of us players.

At the very least please adjust the pop ups so that as soon as you move the mouse the pop-ups disappear instead of disappearing once your mouse leaves the "grid area". The new tool tips slider does nothing to solve the issue.

My accounts are due for extension in 45-60 days. I have been playing a lot less and I will be un-subbing all accounts if this SMALL issue of tool tip pop ups is not addressed in a timely manner.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1072 - 2014-06-04 08:32:25 UTC
Varesk wrote:
I am thinking the Devs that made these "tool tips" fall under one of these 3 choices.

1) dont play eve
2) played eve for about 1 hour before they applied to CCP
3) if they do play Eve, they dont undock
4) see 1,2 and 3

Obviously the people that play Eve are in this thread asking for an Off Switch, yet they are playing the "We know what we are doing and we dont care what the players think" card. Also its time to trash the CSM since they wont stand behind the players.


You forgot a couple of requirements for the job...

5) An elevated sense of importance
6) Unbounded arrogance thinking that they know better than everyone else.


Mag's
Azn Empire
#1073 - 2014-06-04 20:08:06 UTC
As we now seem to have reached the point of no return, I'd like a Dev to answer me a simple question please.

Why are you so against giving us an off option?

When WIS was first announced, although I wasn't that bothered initially, I did see it had great potential for the game. What changed that for me and I believe many others, was your use of WIS to not add options, but to remove them. Ship spinning etc.
You forced us into it and it was that that made many of us reject it.

Then came scanning every jump. I'm sure it's great for some and although I see it can be useful, you've lost many supporters because again you used it to remove options. I hate it still to this day, but put up with it because I have no option.

If I play a game and it comes with hints, I will use them then lose them. If there were no way to remove hints from a game, I highly doubt I'd play it again. Devs of those games understand this and give us those options.

CCP WhiteNoiseTrash has done a wonderful job with the audio side. As you know, the standing joke for a long time has been, 'Eve has sound?'
Now if you read his thread, you'll see he's added options, not removed them. We can still turn them off, but we can also turn individual ones on. A perfect solution and I will most likely start using a few sounds.

I understand the tooltip idea. For new players it will be great when you've corrected it, but I wish to remove it. I don't see why that could be seen, as anything but a reasonable request.

Options are good.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#1074 - 2014-06-04 20:30:24 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Options are good.


The audio and visual customization options are fantastic, I sincerely wish this was extended to the UI.
Panterata
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#1075 - 2014-06-04 20:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Panterata
Probably they stop reading here so I start opening petitions and bug reports every day! So they will start read.
Arec Bardwin
#1076 - 2014-06-04 21:09:33 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:

In other news, we are still looking into things.
So how's the looking into things going?
Penny Ernaga
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1077 - 2014-06-05 09:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Penny Ernaga
Jimmy Prophet wrote:
...... Please bring back the old brackets list in space with planets and custom offices and the fully transparent background so we can use the infomation in atimely and efficent manner.


^This a 1000 times ! The delay slider does not do the trick, seriously. Not for the tooltips in space.

If I put it on minimal time = black viewblocker box, hiding the action (and a scrollbar, thats just ridiculous)
If I put it on maximum time = I can not choose a quick "warp- or align-to"

You guys did put in a lot of effort to Kronos. Some nice features and ships, thanks. But this issue with the inspace tooltips is so bad, that no other feature/ship/improvement can make up for it.

For the love of god, change it. It was working perfectly well before - no Dev was able to tell what was wrong with the old inspace feature yet. And we have now 54 pages in this thread. Cry
Sarka Bathory
Perkone
Caldari State
#1078 - 2014-06-05 11:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarka Bathory
CCP karkur wrote:
Could you please explain to me what your huge problem with the bracket list is? (a genuine question and please be specific, for example: "cannot point/target object is space", why not, what is the problem?)
Most of the complaints I have seen about it is that you cannot click through it, but that was the case with the brackets before (we have old clients we can compare to).
The delay has now been fixed, the opacity has been tuned down, the list only appears on clusters.... what else is so horrible except that it's new? .....


Dear CCP karkur, seriously? "..explain to me what your huge problem with the bracket list is.."? We have well over a thousand posts now; I did a rough cross-check: at least half of them explain it in a very specific way, and are including examples.

If you read any 5 random pages of this thread, you have all the answers - all facts and examples. And you will know "what else is so horrible" - it is not that it is new. I don`t assume that too many EVE players are Amish, and are against new things by definition, if you allow that joke.

My last attempt now to contribute, even if it feels a bit stupid, as it has been said litteraly many hundred times. And I will limit my feedback to PVP situations & the inspace tooltips/brackets, and just 2 examples, to keep it short:

> I have the choice to get the black box instantly: blocking my view, making it impossible to jump to a specific fleetmate in battle (and I want to do that, as a sniper, logie, or the "cavalry" for a damsel in distress) - because I would have to scroll through a long list of friends, foes, wrecks, concord, and what not. Especially ships tend to move in battle, which does not help either. And last not least, it`s bad not to see who approaches me (...yes, I am one of the persons who not only fly by "sort overview by distance and keep range", sorry for that. I like to see positions relative to me, and not just distances in the overview tab.).

> I have the choice to get the black box with a bit of a delay: If I have to bail to a cluster (stations, planets, custom offices), I have no choice to which object anymore - because if I have to bail out, I usually have no time to wait for the list and to scroll, but need to take the closest cluster I am roughly aligned to. I will land at whatever object in space is closest in that cluster of things, and everybody chasing me, will land right at me, because it`s the same for them (lost a Prophecy yesterday because I landed at a station, and 20+ ships (the whole enemy fleet) landed right with me, or even before me, on the very same spot. With a little bit of aggro timer left, that was it for me before I could have docked. But could have been a customs office or planet as well, with not even giving me the little chance to wait out my aggro timer and dock (...don`t care about the Proph loss, though, just an example). The other way round it feels like an exploit, since my chance of catching people warping to clusters is now greatly increased, as it´s very very likely I land on the same grid, no gamble anymore.

> No matter how I set the slider, it is significantly worse than it was before. One way or the other it hampers my gameplay, without giving any advantage at all. Not to mention immersion, which drops quite a bit by looking at scrollboxes with the style of an outdated Microsoft Office package.

Again, old question: what was wrong with the old inspace brackets? ....what else is so horrible except that it's old? - If I may tweak your question a bit, no offense Cool
Jimmy Prophet
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1079 - 2014-06-05 12:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jimmy Prophet
Okay some screenshot examples of why this doesn't work at the moment.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dvjltPc.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hd4kSvo.jpg[/IMG]

and finally
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/B0kUndT.jpg[/IMG]

All have the issues with this included with the images

How it used to work inspace with the brackets never had any of these issues. Also you could still see everything happening around you.
Now you have a choice of truncated description of the location in a black text box that obscures your view. Also having to scroll through options rather than point and click takes longer if chasing a target or being chased by a target

A delay of the above mentioned issue

or a default option of 1 location to warp to that everyone else would have while trying to escape.

I am not opposed to change but change for the better is good, change for the sake of it is bad and change to make things more complex and obtrusive for the players really isn't good at all.

Also as you mentioned before CCP Karkur that is was being looked into could we please have a update on if things are progressing forwards or are they just being left for the time being because of the the new expansion being released with the hope of a influx of new players may find these distractions useful.
Sarka Bathory
Perkone
Caldari State
#1080 - 2014-06-05 13:40:35 UTC
Jimmy Prophet wrote:
Okay some screenshot examples of why this doesn't work at the moment.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dvjltPc.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hd4kSvo.jpg[/IMG]

and finally
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/B0kUndT.jpg[/IMG]

All have the issues with this included with the images

How it used to work inspace with the brackets never had any of these issues. Also you could still see everything happening around you.
Now you have a choice of truncated description of the location in a black text box that obscures your view.

A delay of the above mentioned issue

or a default option of 1 location to warp to that everyone else would have while trying to escape.

I am not opposed to change but change for the better is good, change for the sake of it is bad and change to make things more complex and obtrusive for the players really isn't good at all.

Also as you mentioned before CCP Karkur that is was being looked into could we please have a update on if things are progressing forwards or are they just being left for the time being because of the the new expansion being released with the hope of a influx of new players may find these distractions useful.


Jimmy, thanks a lot for the pictures!

They illustrate perfectly why this new blackbox-thingy does not make any sense at all, and is far worse than what we had before. It`s basically what I tried to explain in my previous post, but way more understandable, even for those Devs who do not play the game (...and meanwhile I assume that there are quite a few of them, sorry for being honest and open on this).