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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Merida DunBrogh
Black Screen Of Raging Defeat
#701 - 2014-05-16 14:35:21 UTC
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
yeah we all remember, it took 6 month to get slightly usuable, a year to be almost bug free, and still doesn't perform half as good as the old system....so yeah, we remember


You're funny. In a sad kind of way.

The Inventory system works better than the old system, not much improvement but it is definitely there. I can't find any downsides to it.


The new tooltips are mostly fine as well, some are redundant and should get changed or give more info(like in overview: Class Name Corp Alliance for example) or a delay option. The "block of death" as it is referred to needs to get changed as well I admit, but it isn't nearly as bad as so many of you are whining.
Hell, most of you are whining more than the Carebear Whiners you all hate so much.


The new tooltips aren't unusable, they are definitely helpful in a lot of cases, and not nearly the "Death of EVE" as many of you are making it look like.

And why would there be an On/Off switch or a Rollback? If they get actually usable feedback instead of just useless feedback they might actually change it for the better.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#702 - 2014-05-16 14:36:59 UTC
Ibuyyou Kitty wrote:
Quintessen,

I have been reading through all of your previous post and IMHO you are obviously either an alt of a CCP employee or a unemployed-wannabe CCP employee. For the life of me I cannot fathom most if not all of your responses. Do you actually play the same game we all play?

Tooltips are no different than any other setting. An on-off switch should have been deployed with this patches release. PERIOD


No, I'm not a CCP employee, nor do I have any intention of becoming one. I am a UX/UI architect for a Fortune 500. But none of that matters. Because unless we're playing fallacy bingo, attacking me as a player, doesn't affect the validity of my or your arguments. I do, in fact, play the same game you all play and have been affected by the same changes you have as have lots of other players.

I mentioned in one of my original posts that there were problems with the system and those problems needed to be addressed, but I also cautioned that it's dangerous to listen to users when they ask for or demand certain behaviors because they have been proven to be terrible predictors and analysts of their own behavior -- see linked article as one of many examples of this.

I also tried to address the request some players were making for a complete rollback. It may have been better if CCP let it sit on SiSi for additional time, but at this point a rollback would probably be terrible.

For one, it's very possible, if not likely that additional database changes were made at the same time as the client changes. Those database changes may be very expensive to rollback. Live data tends to complicate the issue. In live systems there's no rolling back, just moving forward. What you move towards may be what you had before structurally, but it's still built as a set of new changes.

And finally, my experience is that calling for employee termination never works outside of people who are forward facing customer representatives like salespeople, GMs, and public relations. And, usually, only when they do something they knew was bad. And just remember that people are calling for the unemployment and hurting of an employee for an honest mistake. They want to hurt them for messing up their entertainment. Lets keep some things in perspective. It's just a game after all right?
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#703 - 2014-05-16 14:39:23 UTC
If you really must use tooltips in space, perhaps you can use a "priority" system so that the tooltips do not overlay the critical gameplay interaction that people have been complaining about? IE layers, though I'm not sure this would have the "look" you are going for and would be visually appealing to the player in general.
CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp
#704 - 2014-05-16 14:39:28 UTC
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.

Feel free to poke me on: Twitter

Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#705 - 2014-05-16 14:47:37 UTC
Merida DunBrogh wrote:
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
yeah we all remember, it took 6 month to get slightly usuable, a year to be almost bug free, and still doesn't perform half as good as the old system....so yeah, we remember


You're funny. In a sad kind of way.

The Inventory system works better than the old system, not much improvement but it is definitely there. I can't find any downsides to it.


The new tooltips are mostly fine as well, some are redundant and should get changed or give more info(like in overview: Class Name Corp Alliance for example) or a delay option. The "block of death" as it is referred to needs to get changed as well I admit, but it isn't nearly as bad as so many of you are whining.
Hell, most of you are whining more than the Carebear Whiners you all hate so much.


The new tooltips aren't unusable, they are definitely helpful in a lot of cases, and not nearly the "Death of EVE" as many of you are making it look like.

And why would there be an On/Off switch or a Rollback? If they get actually usable feedback instead of just useless feedback they might actually change it for the better.

i agree that on some aspect, the new inventory is better.

all the filters and the tree for instance ARE great improvements
but for complex uses involving, as i described, many different holds, it is now more complex, time consuming, and therefore painfull

regarding the toltips, only the inspace ones are a problem, the others are, imao, useless and redundant, but i can definitely live with them.

the inspace one however, ARE disrupting in regard of the gameplay, because they actually prevent the player from performing most of the fast response action that are required when engaging in PVP, to such a level than now any PVP is almost impossible to perform if there is more than 2 or 3 objects on field.

i can understand that they are not disrupting your gameplay, but i'm a FC, among other things, and it disrupt gameplay for PVP at all level in the command tree, to such a degree that, at least in my alliance and ONE of the major one, many FC decided to suspend any OP until it is fixed because it is actually unbearable. plain and simple.

it feels like a racing game where your windshield would be painted black except for a 2x2cm little square right in the middle.
this is HOW BAD the current situation is.
Panterata
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#706 - 2014-05-16 14:49:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Panterata
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.



The problem in detail is that people don't like it which is written and explained in 36 pages!!!
handbanana
State War Academy
Caldari State
#707 - 2014-05-16 14:49:21 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Thanks for the constructive feedback guys. It's not being ignored, and people have been working hard on addressing your concerns as you can see with today's patch.

Please keep the feedback constructive(as many of you have of course), tell us what is bothering you so we can get a good idea of what your problem is and can hopefully address it :)

Help us to help you... or something like that P


It is still missing an off switch.

Perhaps this helps?

“It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.”    -Jack Handy

Penny Ernaga
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#708 - 2014-05-16 14:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Penny Ernaga
Merida DunBrogh wrote:

And why would there be an On/Off switch or a Rollback? If they get actually usable feedback instead of just useless feedback they might actually change it for the better.


This, Merida, is just plain nonsense, sorry for not sugarcoating. The amount, quality and detail level of feedback given in this thread is just amazing - no matter that the tone of voice is questionable in some cases.
A lot of companies would just spend a hell lot of money to get those insights - and in almost all other interactions between serviceprovider and customer, the customer would just cut the relation. Thanks god EVE is such a strong product that customers tolerate a lot, and CCP should actually write a "thank you" letter to each and everyone who contributes here ...
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
#709 - 2014-05-16 14:52:10 UTC
Did you run the new tool tips by the CSM? There's some bright people that were recently elected that I'm sure would've pointed out how pants on head ******** some of the design decisions (many other people here have laid out my concerns, I'm content with not repeating them) that went into these tool tips.

/sigh

Anyone else feeling like they're paying to be a beta tester?

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven.

Thak Dallocort
Rogues and Destitutes
#710 - 2014-05-16 14:55:42 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.


Exploration Problem:

During data/relic exploration the tool tips still block interaction with multiple canisters that are top of each other making a big impact on select and grab time.


Unsure as to benefit:

With the overview, there are already symbols and customizable columns for description and names so when hovering over an item and a redundant popup tooltip appears is a bit distracting. After a bit this can be ignored, but in a busy screen any new 'motion' detracts the eye from what really need to be observed.
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#711 - 2014-05-16 14:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Eurynome Mangeiri
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4587788#post4587788

can't believe you missed it, it is the 4th post of this thread......

as it is stated from page ONE:


THE PLAYERS WANT THOSE TOOLTIPS TO GTFO


1- the inspace and overview tooltips hides thing behind them AND prevent them to be interacted with
2- the show up / vanish timer is BAD and induce the inability for fast response from players
3- the information is LESS pertinent and more redundant than before


there you go, you have the major issue

now the suggestion that have been made, again since page ONE:

1- ON/OFF switch, at least for inspace + overview / customisable transparency
2- customisable timer for both settings
3- improve the usefullness of the information (smarter choosing) / remove the redundant information / tooltip)
ex: Stargate tooltip on a Stargate => wouldn't it be clever to give the dest system instead of ?
Statino tooltip on Station => wouldn't it be clever to give the station NAME instead?
Lisa Gentilette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#712 - 2014-05-16 15:00:47 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.


Ok, I can do that.

My problem is that you are treating us like computer illeterates.
My problem is that I find it *offending* that you have a tool tip over an 'x' that closes a window that tells me this closes this window.

My problem is that although *some* tool tips are useful, the MAJORITY of them is not.
My problem is that a lot of these tool tips block the information thats below them.

My BIGGEST problem is that I do not have *any* options to disable the tool tips that I deem annoying, offending aka plain simply redundant.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#713 - 2014-05-16 15:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Darin Vanar
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.


It would be really helpful in gathering feedback to state what the goal of the team is with these tooltips?

What are they meant for? They just suddenly got hotdropped on the playerbase with no real explanation for why there are here.

Is it for New Player Experience? If so, we can give our input with that in mind.

Is it the way the client is trying to move forward?
If so, well, we can tell you what we like/don't like about it if you're planning to go as far with this as to eventually overhaul the client. So far, most of the feedback has been that we really don't like any of it, and in this case it's my suggestion that you start over with the "in space" part of the tooltip program.

But I mean, why is it here? What is it meant to accomplish?

We could give you better feedback if we knew that. Otherwise, we are just guessing, and giving you random feedback.
Orla- King-Griffin
#714 - 2014-05-16 15:04:49 UTC
handbanana wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Thanks for the constructive feedback guys. It's not being ignored, and people have been working hard on addressing your concerns as you can see with today's patch.

Please keep the feedback constructive(as many of you have of course), tell us what is bothering you so we can get a good idea of what your problem is and can hopefully address it :)

Help us to help you... or something like that P


It is still missing an off switch.

Perhaps this helps?


Can i have you stuff?

Ah shite...

Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#715 - 2014-05-16 15:09:55 UTC
With respect to configuration, as a designer, you need to be very careful not to just make everything configurable. Otherwise you end up in the UI hall of shame.

http://www.ronaldbieber.de/Interface_Hall_of_Shame/recent/dolphin0.gif

Configuration isn't free. It comes with direct cost at the complexity of the configuration UI. One of the things that killed early Mozilla before it was forked and re-imagined as Firefox was that the huge number of configuration options made the product hard to use and slow. People wanted lots of features and when there was disagreement they almost always solved it by adding a configuration option.

Often it's better to not add a configuration option, but make the feature work for the majority. Only for situations where you really don't have a single audience (like the overview or map) do you actually need configuration. And here I want to be specific in that basic personalization is not what I'm talking about. Being able to pick your ships skin or mods or rigs is not the issue -- that's good complexity and what makes it a game.

But we shouldn't have to fight with the UI. That's not the game.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#716 - 2014-05-16 15:15:05 UTC
Orla- King-Griffin wrote:
handbanana wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Thanks for the constructive feedback guys. It's not being ignored, and people have been working hard on addressing your concerns as you can see with today's patch.

Please keep the feedback constructive(as many of you have of course), tell us what is bothering you so we can get a good idea of what your problem is and can hopefully address it :)

Help us to help you... or something like that P


It is still missing an off switch.

Perhaps this helps?


Can i have you stuff?



This is really unhelpful and quite demoralizing to the team trying to help. Thus not helping *us*.

We don't even know what their goals are. They could even have their order from higher up saying 'do this', and they may not have the freedom in enacting anything else right now. If people have nothing further to say, at least don't demoralize them and making them take time to read redundant posts.

Yes, they are making us read redundant tooltips but at least they are trying to communicate about this 'tooltip gate' now, so we can better understand where they are coming from as well.
Sarka Bathory
Perkone
Caldari State
#717 - 2014-05-16 15:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarka Bathory
Panterata wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.



The problem in detail is that people don't like it which is written and explained in 36 pages!!!



^THIS.
(.... what the problem is in detail - one could fill a 110% comprehensive change request report with all the problem descriptions given. No harm meant, CCP RubberBand, appreciate much that you are working on the issue, but this is going strange places ...)
handbanana
State War Academy
Caldari State
#718 - 2014-05-16 15:29:17 UTC
Darin Vanar wrote:
Orla- King-Griffin wrote:
handbanana wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Thanks for the constructive feedback guys. It's not being ignored, and people have been working hard on addressing your concerns as you can see with today's patch.

Please keep the feedback constructive(as many of you have of course), tell us what is bothering you so we can get a good idea of what your problem is and can hopefully address it :)
Help us to help you... or something like that P

It is still missing an off switch.

Perhaps this helps?
Can i have you stuff?
This is really unhelpful and quite demoralizing to the team trying to help. Thus not helping *us*.

It's also really unhelpful and quite demoralizing that:

1) After 10 years CCP is still making the same rookie mistakes.

2) They are still not testing new features before they go live.

3) They still ignore feedback they claim to encourage and listen to.

Maybe their bosses should be posting here if you are so concerned about anyone being demoralized. I think anyone who pays for a service is within reason to complain when that service no longer works or becomes overly discouraging to use.

“It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.”    -Jack Handy

Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#719 - 2014-05-16 15:30:12 UTC
What I would like:

1) Tooltips on module attributes for things that are hard to understand what they actually mean in game, and have no wiki to explain all their particular attributes. Veteran players know this information, but for a new player this is the worst offender in trying to understand the game - when you open the info tab and look at the attributes and come out of that more confused than when you started. Tooltips there would help a lot.

Perhaps even have them perform some context sensitive math based on attributes you've already reviewed on other ships, and calculate that difference for you between, say the last three items with this attribute (or the last three times this attribute was loaded, difference was this, and total deviation was this percent, that sort of thing - and name of ship). Things like that would benefit the veteran player, while still remaining full information for the new player.

2) I would like the current brackets to be redone entirely. They need a modern form that can compete with upcoming games in the genre in the visual appeal range, while still maintaining the same efficiency as currently (as a system) if not entirely improving on it. Efficiency and ease of use here is a must. If it breaks current gameplay, go back to the drawing board and start over.

If it's not an improvement, but just "looks better", don't use it. This goes for both cases.

I know that's asking a lot, but hey, that's design!
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#720 - 2014-05-16 15:33:22 UTC
handbanana wrote:
Darin Vanar wrote:
Orla- King-Griffin wrote:
handbanana wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Thanks for the constructive feedback guys. It's not being ignored, and people have been working hard on addressing your concerns as you can see with today's patch.

Please keep the feedback constructive(as many of you have of course), tell us what is bothering you so we can get a good idea of what your problem is and can hopefully address it :)
Help us to help you... or something like that P

It is still missing an off switch.

Perhaps this helps?
Can i have you stuff?
This is really unhelpful and quite demoralizing to the team trying to help. Thus not helping *us*.

It's also really unhelpful and quite demoralizing that:

1) After 10 years CCP is still making the same rookie mistakes.

2) They are still not testing new features before they go live.

3) They still ignore feedback they claim to encourage and listen to.

Maybe their bosses should be posting here if you are so concerned about anyone being demoralized. I think anyone who pays for a service is within reason to complain when that service no longer works or becomes overly discouraging to use.


Catch 22.

A catch-22 is a paradoxical situation from which an individual cannot escape because of contradictory rules.

We can't have quality without a motivated team. We can't demotivate said team and then expect said quality.

At least that's how it works for me, just trying to be helpful here.