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New dev blog: Anomalies revisited

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Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#161 - 2011-11-17 12:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Floydd Heywood wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
These are just soft nerf ideas off the top of my head. More comprehensive revisions could always come later; however, It would not be wise to make that "later" a particularly long period of time.


That would achieve the goal, but what is "soft" about it? Your proposal would crash the ISK/hour for hisec PvE immediately, and the rage storm would be terrible Blink

No incursions in hisec: Players simply cannot do anymore in hisec what they like to do now. It's hard to think of any change harder than that.

All other proposals will directly lead to more time needed to get same ISK, which effectively means less ISK/hour.


That's the point, and that's what's necessary. Trying to balance upwards with currency is stupid because it diminishes the value of prior achievements. This is an area where Eve and WoW are similar; you don't want to make players feel like the time they invested before to have been a waste. When players feel like they've been wasting their time, they feel no compulsion to continue investing in themselves into the game.
S8nt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2011-11-17 12:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: S8nt
S8nt wrote:
Hi,

With the calculations now done with these Anomalies, could you please now go work out the following:

- ISK per hour for mining in belts in say angel space where there is a crapload of ABC's
- ISK per hour mining in say Tribute where there is no ABC's
- ISK per hour mining in system upgraded Grav sites at say a resonable level 3 or 4?

Please CCP, if there is one thing you do this expansion, please fix mining so that it doesn't have to be bot run to make a semi decent income.

S8nt


CCP Greyscale,

With regards to ISK coming in and out it might be constant. But could you please tell me why mineral prices have fallen so much since 2008. Mega if I am correct was at around 3400 a unit and Zid was at 2600 a unit. Those two minerals now in Jita is at around 2700 for Mega and 775 for Zydrine. How has that stayed constant since 2008? How does ratting compare to mining?

Could you please comment.

S8nt
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2011-11-17 13:08:55 UTC
Floydd Heywood wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
These are just soft nerf ideas off the top of my head. More comprehensive revisions could always come later; however, It would not be wise to make that "later" a particularly long period of time.


That would achieve the goal, but what is "soft" about it? Your proposal would crash the ISK/hour for hisec PvE immediately, and the rage storm would be terrible Blink

No incursions in hisec: Players simply cannot do anymore in hisec what they like to do now. It's hard to think of any change harder than that.

All other proposals will directly lead to more time needed to get same ISK, which effectively means less ISK/hour.


Well, if you nerfe HighSec (eg. deleting Incursions) that would only affect 90% of Eve players. Nobody will miss them, when they leave Eve.
That would make HighSec as good populatad as 0.0.

[/irony] [/sarcasm]

Why do you people always want to make everyone to play eve the way you play it?
Leave those Carebears alone. Let them play EVE the way they like.
Inkluding running 10 times a day "Damsel in Distress" with killing the Damsel and rescuing Krull
(or was it the other way around?)

Why does everyone have to be in low / 0.0 and kill other Players?

It is a Sandbox for gods sake and not one big PvP area.

If you want someone to get out of Highsec you have to show him the carrot and not push him with a Stick, because if he feels the stick, he dosn't come back and quit.
So make the carrot nice and delisious so they want to get to 0.0 and low.

And never forget: No matter what carrot you present, how nice it tasts, how beautiful it is, there are always people who like meat more than carrots.

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Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#164 - 2011-11-17 13:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Neo Agricola wrote:
Well, if you nerfe HighSec (eg. deleting Incursions) that would only affect 90% of Eve players. Nobody will miss them, when they leave Eve.
That would make HighSec as good populatad as 0.0.

[/irony] [/sarcasm]

Why do you people always want to make everyone to play eve the way you play it?
Leave those Carebears alone. Let them play EVE the way they like.
Inkluding running 10 times a day "Damsel in Distress" with killing the Damsel and rescuing Krull
(or was it the other way around?)

Why does everyone have to be in low / 0.0 and kill other Players?

It is a Sandbox for gods sake and not one big PvP area.

If you want someone to get out of Highsec you have to show him the carrot and not push him with a Stick, because if he feels the stick, he dosn't come back and quit.
So make the carrot nice and delisious so they want to get to 0.0 and low.

And never forget: No matter what carrot you present, how nice it tasts, how beautiful it is, there are always people who like meat more than carrots.


What you said would be fair and reasonable if what one player did had no impact on the other. Obviously, that's not how Eve Online works.

I'm not saying you need to go to 0.0; what I am saying is that high security space should never approach the maximums offered by dangerous space. Balancing upwards will not work, but balancing downwards will have to be handled carefully, gently, and slowly to avoid pissing people off.

I'm not looking to change the fundamentals of how carebears play the game, I'm asking them to take it down a notch, because the ISK that's flooding the game lines the coffers of the moon goo makers while pushing the economies of scale to new, absurd, effort devaluating heights. I'm not expecting anyone to like it at a personal level.
Floydd Heywood
Doomheim
#165 - 2011-11-17 13:36:18 UTC
No one will ever be forced to leave hisec. You can continue carebearing all your life, you'll just have to be content with the fact that you will make a lot less money per hour than the guys taking risks.

"Evelgrivion" wrote:
That's the point, and that's what's necessary. Trying to balance upwards with currency is stupid because it diminishes the value of prior achievements. This is an area where Eve and WoW are similar; you don't want to make players feel like the time they invested before to have been a waste. When players feel like they've been wasting their time, they feel no compulsion to continue investing in themselves into the game.


Ok, but what achievements would be devalued if prices were 100% higher tomorrow? Towers, Ships, Sov Structures or items accumulated will still be there and be as useful as before. The only "achievement" that loses value is the liquid ISK in your wallet. I'm pretty sure that most individual players do not hoard large sums of liquid ISK in their wallets. Most will have only 1 billion or even less. So the loss of previous investments would be rather minor.

I hear that alliances often have trillions of ISK in their wallets. But that is a bad thing in itself, and it would be good if those virtually inexhaustible lakes of ISK were drained dry. The massive passive income is another major problem of EVE.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#166 - 2011-11-17 13:45:03 UTC
Floydd Heywood wrote:
I hear that alliances often have trillions of ISK in their wallets. But that is a bad thing in itself, and it would be good if those virtually inexhaustible lakes of ISK were drained dry. The massive passive income is another major problem of EVE.


The income is only as valuable as the constraints on supply and the amount of ISK available to pay for it. Giving more players inevitably gives more economic power to the moon holders.
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2011-11-17 13:48:23 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:

What you said would be fair and reasonable if what one player did had no impact on the other.
.

Not exactly.
Basically:
You need Carebears as much as 0.0 Players.
- Producing Goods
- Mining minerals
- Buying Faction / Officer Stuff.

Who buyes Machariels / Vindis / CN Invul Fields if not the Carebears?
Guys like R&K, PL and other elite PvPlers. Are they 10% of the PvPlers? Don't know but I guess no.
(yes I know some guys do solo PvP in Pirate Ships, some make Anos in Pirate ships and so on, but I dont think they are that many)

Evelgrivion wrote:

I'm not saying you need to go to 0.0; what I am saying is that high security space should never approach the maximums offered by dangerous space.

100% Agree

Evelgrivion wrote:

Balancing upwards will not work


I dont think so, but ok.

Evelgrivion wrote:

but balancing downwards will have to be handled carefully, gently, and slowly to avoid pissing people off.


And I don't think that will work. Because if you start to take the candies from the High sec Carebears, they will stop to play eve.
I think if you cut Incursions by more than 10% they are as lucrative as LvL4 Missions and we already have a lot of them for a long time...


Evelgrivion wrote:

I'm not looking to change the fundamentals of how carebears play the game, I'm asking them to take it down a notch,
because the ISK that's flooding the game lines the coffers of the moon goo makers while pushing the economies of scale to new,
absurd, effort devaluating heights. I'm not expecting anyone to like it at a personal level.


And that is the error in my opinion.
The moon goo is the problem and you want cuts for the High Sec Mission runners???

CCP is already working in a way to reduce the money in game:
Insureance Payout with Concord
Cheaper Gank Ships
a.s.o.

Especially those new Gank Ships will reduce those Tengu Fleets in Highsec dramatically. Because now you can gank a Tengu with one ship just for the LOLs...


And last but not least:

Last time I heard something about ISK Flow it was something like: "0.0 Anomalys are the greatest source of Income". And I think, if CCP would be able to get rid of 80% of current bots, we would had a better economy.
less isk flow, less minerals (mining would be better payed) a.s.o.

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Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#168 - 2011-11-17 14:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
I've never been one that has popular opinions on what is the right direction for Eve Online's game mechanics. P

Yes, I am asking for mission runners to take the raw cut in income; representing 90% of the playerbase and making a substantial chunk of change per person in safe space, high security space dwelling players represent the largest source of currency in Eve.

This is not to say that 0.0 pilots should be immune either. In my ideal world, ISK generation should not average above 50 or 60 million ISK an hour. With Sanctums pushing 120 million ISK per hour, I'm asking for the amount of money these features provide to be cut in half.

The only way this all works out in the end is if people are willing to live with less ISK and less abundant raw materials. The tradeoff is deeper attachment to the game, a greater appreciation for the assets you hold, a stronger desire of other players to take what you've earned and a greater willingness to fight to keep what you have once you have it.

Fighting for what you have is what made Eve Online interesting. The greater and greater quantities of stuff with which players have been bearing it up is damaging to the appeal of the game. As a PVP pilot, my play is more interesting when I can't replace my ships with the same ease and knowing my foes have the same difficulties.

Nobody likes having things taken away from them, but you appreciate what you have a lot more if you have to work harder to get it. I'm not saying you should be grinding several hours per day over a week to replace one battleship, but the current state of affairs isn't where I think they should be.
TOTALHELLD3ATH
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2011-11-17 14:20:44 UTC
Jojo Yohan wrote:
Zendoren wrote:
Jojo Yohan wrote:

I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).


Quote:
we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal, using mainly battlecruisers and high-value battleships to minimize the additional Effective Hit Points added to the site as a whole.


This suggest that they are calculating anomalies profitability by its collective EHP. This means that the total amount of isk gain within a site is directly proportional to the amount of damage one must put in it to finish the site.

I do not see where drone sites were specifically mentioned; however, i would suspect that drones were left untouched and the rest of the anomalies were buff to bring them inline to the amount of damage that must be done in drone sites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to profit from anomalies (Drops, bounties, and salvage). Since drones rely mostly on drops and salvage (not a drone region resident sorry), CCP should have accounted for the profitability of Drone sites correctly if they did indeed use the above method.



I read that. They also said that they use this metric because ISK/hour has a lot of noise since everyone has their own pace/ship/setup that directly affects how fast they can complete and salvage an anomaly. So while they may have increased the drops and drones in total, they actually increased the time it takes to do the anomaly considerably.

This time increase is due to the fact that one can no longer destroy the four bunkers in 1 version of the anomaly and now must do this anomaly wave by wave. Drastically increasing the time and making it impossible to salvage while running this anomaly. There is already a version of Drone Horde that requires you to do waves, and no one runs that version because it already takes too much time.

Maybe this post will answer a few more questions as to why this change is not a good one, and it has nothing to do with coddling the drone regions.


It also seems that some people have no clue what the problem is, so I stated it above.

tl;dr -> The version of drone horde that allowed you to spawn all the drones and agro them and then bring in your looter at the same time was nerfed so that it has to be done wave by wave, increasing the total time to finish it and therefore lowering ISK/hour, even though ISK/EHP may have increased, this will still lead to a lower income for everyone running this anomaly.


Greyscale hope you are reading and listening for feedback. Please do not make this change so that you cannot pop all the drone bunkers and to get the full spawn. We may not need a buff like the pirate anomalies do but at least spare us the nerf bat.

My corp left Angel space for a "better" system because of the anom nerf in March. Now we are going to get the nerf bat again??? I would be OK with the change as is if we had bounties rather than drone poo, but being able to pay some noob in a noctis to cleanup while you run the site is key to doing these hordes efficiently. I would love it if drones were changed to give bounty rather than alloys, I think it would fix alot of the problems with mining. But as it is now even with ABC ores in the belts they rarely are touched because if I want minerals I can get them quicker ratting, not to mention what the influx of all those alloys have on the macro economy of eve.

Please reconsider this change to the Horde spawn mechanic.
BigCountry
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#170 - 2011-11-17 14:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: BigCountry
I am afraid I have to give two thumbs down to this... You didnt add battleships or more alloys becuase you cant properly value them fine.... but by changing them in the manner you did you basically messed us over while buffing everyone else...

Honestly for the most part ppl in the Drone Regions prefer doing these anamolies in the fashion they were done cuz we already have more work involved in making our isk then ppl in other regions..

We dont get bounties... we dont get mod drops .... we dont get faction loot... and our main source of income entirely depends on current market prices.... In other space if mineral values go down , the ISK value of rats does not drop..

So why isnt it ok for us to have slightly easier to do anamolies.... we have to kill, then loot , then haul , then sell before we make 1 ISK for our effort...
Cyrus Doul
kotitekoinen sissijuusto
#171 - 2011-11-17 14:35:26 UTC
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Jojo Yohan wrote:
Temmu Guerra wrote:

And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.


After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf.


I said carrier not super carrier. Sentry II's and heavy drone II's are just as good if not better then fighters.


For those of you who are not drone land people:

Hitting all bunkers at once does one nice thing for you. It gets all the spawns, so with that carrier you can fit to tank the entire site. This could be said that it speeds up the site as you don't have to wait for the triggered rats to get into range and you don't have to spend the extra 30 second for the new wave to aggro the carrier so your drones don't pop. These couple of minutes you save isn't worth that much. Saving 3 minutes a site at best at 75 million per hour is like maybe four million extra per site.

Now that four million per site is quickly negated when we have to loot / salvage everything or we make no money. A level five ore industrial level 5 salvager can just barely keep up with a pair of carriers in one of these sites. Letting the two carriers kill everything by themselves letting drones auto aggro lets you micromanage the Noctis as its a full time job. You try and do it any differently and it will cut into your productivity big time.

Also, I'm lucky enough to live in a station system so i can just dock and dump the loot quickly, Our upper end sites, the Horde, drops approx 2900 to 3100 m3 of loot per site. you quickly fill up and if you live five or six jumps from a station system you now have to make a 10 - 12 jump round trip journey to dump at most 29k m3 of loot with a t2 rigged iteron 5 per trip. That time adds up extremely fast as lost profits.

Finally, a drone Horde is worth about 23 - 25 million each, I know the angel and gurista sanctums are better then that. especially with the 10 million isk faction bs that pops out every so often. our faction bs are actually worth less then a regular as they do not have bounties, and they drop ****** drone parts instead of drone compounds unless they drop a bpc which is like every 1 out of 50 or so if you are lucky.
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2011-11-17 14:38:20 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
I've never been one that has popular opinions on what is the right direction for Eve Online's game mechanics. P

I can live with that, but only IF it makes Eve a better place!
Evelgrivion wrote:

Yes, I am asking for mission runners to take the raw cut in income; representing 90% of the playerbase and making a substantial chunk of change per person in safe space, high security space dwelling players represent the largest source of currency in Eve.


As far as I got the last Dev Blog about ano chanes (you know the one in March with the 1xx pages of rage) they arent. The biggest source of ISK are anos (Bots anyone?)

Evelgrivion wrote:

This is not to say that 0.0 pilots should be immune either. In my ideal world, ISK generation should not average above 50 or 60 million ISK an hour. With Sanctums pushing 120 million ISK per hour, I'm asking for the amount of money these features provide to be cut in half.

Ok, from my point of view:

I have about 2 h per day for eve. I have to spend 1 for corp duties and about 1 h for "fun".
E.g. Incursions, Pos shooting, dying with my Stealthbomber against a Titan, whatever
so if you cut my earning in half i have to grind 1 h for a BC and 2-3 h for a BS. Which means i have less time for PvP


Evelgrivion wrote:

The only way this all works out in the end is if people are willing to live with less ISK and less abundant raw materials. The tradeoff is deeper attachment to the game, a greater appreciation for the assets you hold, a stronger desire of other players to take what you've earned and a greater willingness to fight to keep what you have once you have it.

Fighting for what you have is what made Eve Online interesting. The greater and greater quantities of stuff with which players have been bearing it up is damaging to the appeal of the game. As a PVP pilot, my play is more interesting when I can't replace my ships with the same ease and knowing my foes have the same difficulties.

Nobody likes having things taken away from them, but you appreciate what you have a lot more if you have to work harder to get it. I'm not saying you should be grinding several hours per day over a week to replace one battleship, but the current state of affairs isn't where I think they should be.

Which means less PvP because people have less time, because they need more time for replacing Ships => more grint, less fun...

I see your point, but I dont think that will make EVE a better place. It will make it harder, People will blob more, because they want to avoid losing there ship...

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TOTALHELLD3ATH
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2011-11-17 14:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: TOTALHELLD3ATH
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Drone Horde was a separate issue - those sites were breaking completely if you one-shotted the bunkers. It was also never intended that you could speed up the completion rate by spawning all the NPCs at once, so that was corrected as part of the bugfix. This site should now be more in line with other comparable anomalies and with the original design intent.



Smart folks knew that one-shotting the bunkers was bad and that you failed to get spawns. That's why we just zap them with a target painter.

bugfix, original design intent, whatever you call it no matter how good this change is on the whole for 0.0...

the sites I run are being NERFED.


And before anyone says to move somewhere other than drones, yeah I could but moving sucks. Hell I moved away from Angel space after the last anom nerf. Moving assets in eve is drudgery, so either way I have the drudgery of slower sites. Or the drudgery of packing up and moving again.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#174 - 2011-11-17 14:42:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Neo Agricola wrote:
I see your point, but I dont think that will make EVE a better place. It will make it harder, People will blob more, because they want to avoid losing there ship...


People overcompensate for everything with numbers. There will be no direct translation upwards or downwards due to ships suddenly being more valuable than before; people will still blob, just as they have before, irrespective of the impact of individual loss. People are no less risk averse today than they were four years ago and it's a lot easier to replace a ship now than it was then.

If you only have two hours to commit to Eve Online each night, you should probably work on committing different things to different days or partake to a greater degree in activities that are waiting-game friendly for cash generation. Grinding raw ISK has always been a sucker's game, but that's a poor excuse to make it easier for the suckers; in a PVP video game, when the suckers win, everyone suffers.
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2011-11-17 14:44:55 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Neo Agricola wrote:
I see your point, but I dont think that will make EVE a better place. It will make it harder, People will blob more, because they want to avoid losing there ship...


People overcompensate for everything with numbers. There will be no direct translation upwards or downwards due to ships suddenly being more valuable than before; people will still blob, just as they have before, irrespective of the impact of individual loss. People are no less risk averse today than they were four years ago and it's a lot easier to replace a ship now than it was then.

If you only have two hours to commit to Eve Online each night, you should probably work on committing different things to different days or partake to a greater degree in activities that are waiting-game friendly for cash generation. Grinding raw ISK has always been a sucker's game, but that's a poor excuse to make it easier for the suckers.

Basically, you are telling me how i should play eve... :-)

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Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2011-11-17 14:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Neo Agricola wrote:
Basically, you are telling me how i should play eve... :-)


I certainly was in that post, but the way you play the game now, in the past, and for all time is, and always shall be a product of what the rules and tools enable you to do.

I'm not saying you have to go out and PVE in nullsec if you don't want to; what I am saying is that if you want to make ISK like you do now, you should have to go to nullsec to get it.
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2011-11-17 15:07:20 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Neo Agricola wrote:
Basically, you are telling me how i should play eve... :-)


I certainly was in that post, but the way you play the game now, in the past, and for all time is, and always shall be a product of what the rules and tools enable you to do.


Yeah. and you want to change the tools, so everyone is playing the game "the right way".

All I say is:

Whatever CCP is doing, they have to be very carefull about:

- ISK flow
- Account subscription
- enough PvP
- Sandbox

there are a lot of things they have to keep in mind, when they start to change the Cash Flow in Eve.
And I don't think,
1) cutting Missionrunners ernings to half will make them happy. And I don't know how you look at it, but if I'm not happy with
my Sandbox, I get out of it... (been there, done that, got the scars)

2) Most of the ISKs are not generated in Highsec, it is from 0.0 Anomalys... so, what does it help to cut Missionrunners?
(perhaps those figures are outdated, since i dont have any access to current figures...)

Evelgrivion wrote:

I'm not saying you have to go out and PVE in nullsec if you don't want to; what I am saying is that if you want
to make ISK like you do now, you should have to go to nullsec to get it.

I know, our little blue dot on the influence Map is barely visible, but I'm living in 0.0...

And for your information, Money is not going to drive one single carebear out of Highsec into 0.0.
If you are a carebear, you will not leave High, what ever reason there is.
You will leave Eve if you are not happy with Highsec.

And that Risk vs. Reward thing. I think it is Bullsh*t.

I don't know why you are living in 0.0, but for me it is the fun, which drives me to 0.0.
Nice Corp, nice kills, nice fights, building my own Castle...

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Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#178 - 2011-11-17 15:18:45 UTC
A game without risk for reward is bereft of value and devoid of entertainment that's worth more than a giggle.

Yes, CCP has to be careful, yes I know this won't drive anyone into 0.0 from highsec if high sec is the game they are looking to play; that is not the goal. The purpose of an income nerf is to make nullsec the most desirable place to live so the most competitive players have something to do, without resorting to even more, endless, inflation.
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
#179 - 2011-11-17 15:21:21 UTC
Bear in mind that changes need to work with some factors in mind.

1. No null sec Alliance that I'm aware of has ever invaded someone because "they have good anomalies". We do it because they represent an existential threat or because we want their moon goo. Most of all we do it because it's fun.

2. The distribution of a valuable anomaly is directly connected to small scale PvP. More valuable anomalies in an area, the more people ratting in 0.0 which in turn offers increased targets resulting in an increase to small roaming to go kill them.

If you're serious about overhauling nullsec so that it's more profitable to live out here than running around High Sec in relative saftey farming Incursions all day, as well as attracting more customers to your product by dispelling the perception that Eve is a laggy game, then you need to be creating as much content for small scale warfare as possible. Large scale warfare will always happen in Eve, simply because it's fun but increasing small scale roaming in null sec starts with increasing PvE content.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#180 - 2011-11-17 15:21:48 UTC
StukaBee wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Ya Huei wrote:
They could always nerf those L4 Missions Twisted


It's far more important that they nerf Incursions.


Best to be on the safe side, nerf them both.


Nerf what, how?

What's the purpose of nerf those?

What result are you expecting from that nerf?

Isk flows far more from your null sec bots mining or rating in carriers/T3's than all high sec missioners put together so let me say: nerf carriers or T3's or null sec because of some assholes?

Stupid rabbits are really stupid