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War Declaration Inquiry
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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-05-13 06:25:04 UTC
A war dec is something most have either experienced or heard about. This by no means is some complaint, but more of an open question to everyone. If you feel like answering with an alt or simply mailing me, please do so.

I would like to know more about the pros and cons of the current system. Trends and tactics used and any loop holes. Keep in mind I am not asking about exploits which should reported to CCP immediatly, but more of shaddy tactics to get around some things. An old example was to join and alliance and immediately leave to shed the war dec.

There of course is the more popular complaints about things like neutral remote repairs and gang links, but those are pretty common knowledge. I am more interested in not so common tactics that don't really follow the spirit of the war dec system. Areas that seem to do well and others that are lack luster.

Finally, I really want to hear from the greifers and new players who form corporations. By all means use an alt to post or even mail me if you like, but I really want to hear what exactly is happening on that front. Things you like and hate about it.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2 - 2014-05-13 06:28:38 UTC
They lack victory conditions and war wagers so that you actually have something to fight over.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-05-13 06:38:42 UTC
One thing I noticed is that immediately after joining a corporation, the corporation standings don't update in Local and Overview unless you log off. This might be a bug with my client only, maybe others can confirm. This means that joining a corp like EACS might put you in this limbo where you don't see your WTs coming.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Karen Avioras
The Raging Raccoons
#4 - 2014-05-13 07:27:44 UTC
It feels pretty pointless unless your aim is to camp a trade hub which is more boring than mining
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-05-13 08:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
I don't have a big issue with wardecs.

I don't camp Trade Hubs or Trade Lanes.

I don't think the WarDec mechanic are the issue though. If people don't feel their corp is important enough to fight for they will leave and go to the next corp. Corp stability and ability of the defending corp is the issue.

I also believe that joining corp should mean you receive additional bonus. Like a Booster in the HQ System and then less so in systems with offices. You might see a different attitude how people treat their corp and then hopefully play a more active role in defending it. Call it a moral skill if you will.

Make being in corp actually mean something.

Adding victory conditions almost sounds like a pointless exercise to be honest. Since the minute you force somebody to achieve a certain goal like kill X amount. How do you counter that? Forcefully disallow targets to dock or leave corp the minute a target enters system? That is a nasty slope. With negatives for both sides of the field.

Could not help but notice the responses of the wardec noobs above me.... sigh... And the pointless response below me.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6 - 2014-05-13 08:25:33 UTC
War decs should be replaced with a more meaningful mechanic.

Oh god.
Solecist Project
#7 - 2014-05-13 08:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Riot Girl wrote:
War decs should be replaced with a more meaningful mechanic.

CCP Tuxford trolled it once and I stjll believe it's the best idea and a massive ISK sink.
It's also far more realistic, but sadly won't ever happen.
It has it's flaws, but the basic idea is great.

When you come to New Eden, you're at war with everybody...
...and have to declare PEACE!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-05-13 08:31:41 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
War decs should be replaced with a more meaningful mechanic.

CCP Tuxford trolled it once and I stjll believe it's the best idea and a massive ISK sink.
It's also far more realistic, but sadly won't ever happen.
It has it's flaws, but the basic idea is great.

When you come to New Eden, you're at war with everybody...
...and have to declare PEACE!


I remember that.

Would have been funny if it was so.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#9 - 2014-05-13 09:43:20 UTC
A wardec only seems to have one real functioning purpose;

To harden or Darwin-out the noobs and poor CEOs.

Now, let me explain, I am aware that some people probably might have fun with them and that engagements may occur that are a jolly time had by all but in my experience the only things that occur are the following;

* Bad CEOs tell their guys to "turtle" until its over i.e. Hide in station or dont log in to make the war ineffective in regards to kills

* New or poorly informed players continue to mine and mission either in ignorance or because they are misinformed, and get slaughtered. With luck, the first time they learn not to do that, but often this is not the case. When they get sick of being killed due to their own stubborness, they will "turtle" or quit

* Players who know how the dec works and know their way around a ship and the universe will have plenty of ways to continue working without the Dec being able to effect them. This includes but is not limited to Wormholing or going to Low Sec or Null sec.

In short, once the first two options are exhausted, then only the third remains.

If you are in a corp experiencing the first two, then there is something very wrong with your organisation and your doctrines for Wartime Operation.

If you are the third, then Wardecs have no purpose.

This is just my experience. Online game experience may vary widely.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Murder-Face
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-05-13 09:49:44 UTC
Wardecs are an awesome part of the game and the mechanics are pretty fine as is. The big loopholes like neutral logi and all the complex decshield shenanigans have already been fixed.

I do think the price structure is somewhat flawed. First in the sense that the prices are high enough that they discourage casual wardecs and newbie wardeccers to some extent. The system should encourage as many wars as possible because more war = more fun. Also the price structure seems ass-backwards. If anything, it should be cheaper to dec large alliances. I would propose a flat 10 mil isk war fee if I were in charge.

I also think that there should either be greater incentives for belonging to player corps or disincentives for belonging to NPC corps. Individual players should always be able to opt out of wardecs, but doing so should require a bit greater sacrifice than it currently does.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#11 - 2014-05-13 09:59:21 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:


* Bad CEOs tell their guys to "turtle" until its over i.e. Hide in station or dont log in to make the war ineffective in regards to kills

* New or poorly informed players continue to mine and mission either in ignorance or because they are misinformed, and get slaughtered. With luck, the first time they learn not to do that, but often this is not the case. When they get sick of being killed due to their own stubborness, they will "turtle" or quit

* Players who know how the dec works and know their way around a ship and the universe will have plenty of ways to continue working without the Dec being able to effect them. This includes but is not limited to Wormholing or going to Low Sec or Null sec.


4. Players who know how it works pretend to be an easy mark, and then catch the aggressor as they're heading "home" from a mission that they thought they could run because you wouldn't go hunting for them. Twisted

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jaun Pacht-Feng
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-05-13 10:09:34 UTC
The Queen Bee, known as The Mittani likes the system as it is!

So, it will stay as it is!

The only thing that will change is forcing non CFC members to undock and stay undocked until the wardec is over.

"Go Goon or Go Home"

Perfect description of the biggest problem with Eve. 
ElSuerte Diego
Los Perros Hermanos
#13 - 2014-05-13 10:22:56 UTC
1) Wardecs from griefer corps are one of the big turn offs for new players. You're new and you just found some buddies in a small corp. Sooner or later, some griefer corp decs your corp, and everyone from your corp logs off and plays WoW until the dec expires. Meanwhile the newbie is left alone in EvE and discouraged. The first two corps I joined in EvE as a new player fell apart because of this dynamic. No idea how or if this should be fixed. Maybe a make a junior corp type that is immune to wardecs, but is limited in size and can't anchor stations, pocos, etc.

2) The cost of wardecs is out of whack. Bigger corps shouldn't cost more to dec then smaller ones

3) There's been an problem with people stalking war targets as neutrals, then jumping into corp literally minutes or seconds before they engage the war target so they can get a legit kill. There should be a 24 hour warmup period before people can fight in the war after joining corp. Additionally, there is an exploit problem with this as sometimes your status doesn't doesn't appear correctly to the war target after you join corp. CCP has refunded some freighter kills because of this.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-05-13 10:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
I'm in a Faction Warfare alliance.

We occasionally use wardecs to kill corps in our own Militia that ask for it. Twisted Otherwise we'd take an annoying standings hit with our own faction.

In this specific case, the current mechanic works well imo.


The wardec cost makes sense too, otherwise corps could join FW for the LPs and then just wardec everybody in their own Militia so they can freely shoot anyone, which kind of defies the point of being in a Militia.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#15 - 2014-05-13 10:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
ElSuerte Diego wrote:
1) Wardecs from griefer corps are one of the big turn offs for new players. You're new and you just found some buddies in a small corp. Sooner or later, some griefer corp decs your corp, and everyone from your corp logs off and plays WoW until the dec expires. Meanwhile the newbie is left alone in EvE and discouraged. The first two corps I joined in EvE as a new player fell apart because of this dynamic. No idea how or if this should be fixed. Maybe a make a junior corp type that is immune to wardecs, but is limited in size and can't anchor stations, pocos, etc.

2) The cost of wardecs is out of whack. Bigger corps shouldn't cost more to dec then smaller ones

3) There's been an problem with people stalking war targets as neutrals, then jumping into corp literally minutes or seconds before they engage the war target so they can get a legit kill. There should be a 24 hour warmup period before people can fight in the war after joining corp. Additionally, there is an exploit problem with this as sometimes your status doesn't doesn't appear correctly to the war target after you join corp. CCP has refunded some freighter kills because of this.



1. If they're actually "griefing" then they're risking bans from CCP. If you're calling them "griefers" because you're unwilling to train basic combat skills in a game based around PVP, then that is your failing and not an indication of them "griefing".

CCP Games wrote:

A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way.

[...]

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.


link to full article


2. I agree here. It should be 2 million across the board, and 50m if you're deccing an alliance. (IIRC that's what it used to be before the vocal minority of carebears whined it was "the last thing" they needed from CCP to be "safe" in hisec)

3. This is a bit underhanded ... but so is most of EVE Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-05-13 11:00:22 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
I don't have a big issue with wardecs.

I don't camp Trade Hubs or Trade Lanes.

I don't think the WarDec mechanic are the issue though. If people don't feel their corp is important enough to fight for they will leave and go to the next corp. Corp stability and ability of the defending corp is the issue.

I also believe that joining corp should mean you receive additional bonus. Like a Booster in the HQ System and then less so in systems with offices. You might see a different attitude how people treat their corp and then hopefully play a more active role in defending it. Call it a moral skill if you will.

Make being in corp actually mean something.

Adding victory conditions almost sounds like a pointless exercise to be honest. Since the minute you force somebody to achieve a certain goal like kill X amount. How do you counter that? Forcefully disallow targets to dock or leave corp the minute a target enters system? That is a nasty slope. With negatives for both sides of the field.

Could not help but notice the responses of the wardec noobs above me.... sigh... And the pointless response below me.


I agree with this. I would say though that i think corps should have access to some sort of anchorable structure or structures that give constellation wide boosts. To combat , mission rewards, mining, manufacturing, trading etc. Different structures could boost different things.
Then either provide diminishing returns (ie the more corps have that structure in that area the weaker they are or have a cap on the max allowed.
Now make them really expensive so people have something to defend and corps can mark out territory where they operate.

Then make them attackable under wardecs but only via another structure.
If the attackers kill these structures they get a percentage of the license fee the defenders paid to anchor.
If the defenders kill the attackers structure they get a percentage of the license fee the attackers paid to anchor.

No one has to use these. Wardeccers can freely ignore them. Defenders can let them die.
But it would provide an incentive for the defenders to fight as well as providing well organised high sec PVE corps a method of rewarding their membership via the boosts they give and encoarage specialisation.
The value of the defensable asset would also make hireing defending mercs viable.

I think a system where strong corps with a strong regional base and members living near each other having a reason to fight back and also to stop others from getting these localised boosts will encoarage conflict, provide rationale for conflict, and allow a better evolution between good and bad corp leaderships.
High sec diplomacy and more player interaction and an obvious differential to allow players to tell between well run corps and fail corps i vital to the future of high sec and eve and provide a genuine stepping stone to low and null mechanics/ combat/ regional control and diplomacy.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#17 - 2014-05-13 11:02:55 UTC
Jaun Pacht-Feng wrote:
undock and stay undocked until the wardec is over.


Uh.... thats the best thing to do during a war if you want to avoid trouble, btw

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#18 - 2014-05-13 11:03:49 UTC
"Problem" with war decs is that people on receiving end are free to NOT participate in it. They can stay docked, they can not log in, they can drop corp and there is no way for you to do anything about it. Is that bad? Probably no because denial of engagements is more annoying than getting repeatedly falconed :) So if you are after fights you just lost your money.

But if your goal was to disrupt their logistics/mining or pve - well, you got what you paid for. And to be honest in current state war decs are more useful as means of economic pressure than actual combat stimuli.

At least this is how I see it but I never really paid too much attention to this side of Eve. Being flashy and in lowsec makes wars kind of obsolete unless ransom or nullification of station/gate sentries is required.

Invalid signature format
Solecist Project
#19 - 2014-05-13 11:05:56 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
I think a system where strong corps with a strong regional base and members living near each other having a reason to fight back and also to stop others from getting these localised boosts will encoarage conflict, provide rationale for conflict, and allow a better evolution between good and bad corp leaderships.
No, it won't.

It will lead to the strongest forces controlling a majority of systems.

You think RvB would not take the opportunity all over the place in The Forge,
just because they can? Why wouldn't they?



This doesn't drive conflict, it drives people away from systems
and doesn't affect those who ignore all this completely.

Also ... this isn't Features and Ideas.


You're in the wrong forum and your idea is bad anyway.


Highsec corps are 70% crap. If not even more.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
olga evil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-05-13 11:07:45 UTC
Jaun Pacht-Feng wrote:
The Queen Bee, known as The Mittani likes the system as it is!

So, it will stay as it is!

The only thing that will change is forcing non CFC members to undock and stay undocked until the wardec is over.


Totally agree with this post.

The cost of war deccing null entities is set way too high. If, as these nullseccers say, Hi sec is easy mode, why is it so expensive to dec them giving them almost impunity to travel in hi sec?

Drop the price to dec large alliances / corps please
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