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Here is the way it is actually going to work.

For null, the big alliances will bounce around their fully upgraded outposts, bidding up teams.

For high sec, the coalitions with 10,000+ members, will find a system with low usage and no station facilities. They will put up a small POS on every moon, even if they have to war dec to remove existing POSes. They will put up a single facility of each type.

Lots of facilities only help if you have high fees. Won't be the case where they set up, so no big fees to worry about getting discounted.

Then they will bid up one of each type of the best teams to move to that system. When ready, they will install tens of thousands of jobs for SUPER cheap. (usage over the last 28 days will be near minimum, even as they add thousands of jobs).

No one will be able to take advantage of their teams, because they'll have all the moons and there won't be station services in the system.

They'll move all these goods to market and sell for a slim profit margin above this new minimum cost of manufacturing,

Anyone not in one of these mega alliances, therefore not able to take advantage of access to all the best teams and economies of scale to bring the price of the infinite slot POSes to almost nothing, forget about manufacturing as there will be NO profit in it for you.

With 3 of these systems, they never have to worry about fees or not having the best teams.

Why don't we just wait and see after the patch instead ponder on IFs and BUTs before unsubbing.
My own plan got shot to bits with changes but then after going through pages and pages of dev blogs I found a way to make similar production system that will be even more profitable. And now I'm excited with prospect of less clicking and more ISK. That is a purpose of patches, to make things interesting and exercise your creativity. So guys please don't be babies that cry when their toy is removed and be a grown up and make new and better toy.


IMHO 0.0 pilots use alts to do industry for extra cash and usually lack dedication for big schemes to work. They spend most of the time on pew pew. On alliance level it is all military strategy and rarely some complex industry. And most complex 0.0 industry is done by smaller corps in "pet" alliance which highsec can compete against very well. Also don't forget that industry ops & moving BPOs in 0.0 are much worse then in high sec. Free to kill, bubbles, supers clearing 20 large POSes in under 1 hour, foutpost can be conquered and you get locked out of your full BPO set, miners get BLOP dropped, ratters get poped by fast bubble immune interceptors.

Still if you think 0.0 is better and you wont that piece of cake without bending a knee, then there is one 0.0 region where you can use that "0.0 boost" for your own gain - Providence.
Region is open to all people, 84 solar systems, 72 stations with open docking rights, 3675 moons.
I usually send few freights that way for extra money.

Why does everyone feel this entire patch is Goon Based?

While I am not a fan of the Goons what so ever, I don't see how this patch benifits them and only them. I really like some of the new changes, dislike some of the new changes and don't understand many of the changes will shape things in years to come. Overall many of the changes have been needed for a very LONG time.

You can not compare the way industry works today compared to how it will work in a few months time; this is a complete revamp of the system.

The patch benefits those who are adaptable and well-coordinated. The Goons posting in support of these changes are those two things.

I have wondered the same thing. lol

I have noticed this as well. It's actually bizarre.

The CSM also seems to be pushing these changes, and adherently going against the (at this point I would say, a moderate majority of the) playerbase which they are supposed to, at least in part, try to represent.

Some of the goon responses seem almost to take personal offense that people are not liking some of these changes, as if they had a hand in enacting them.



I don't mind them getting a boost to null sec industry, but the real kicker for me, is the highsec station refining nerfs. If you are a small industrialist, mining your own ore, you are effectively going to pay a -2.8% ME penalty, on whatever you build, for the bill of materials with highsec minerals on them. You are already importing the rest, but now, you won't be able to refine your own locally mined minerals at competitive profit. This, with all refining skills trained, and a 4% implant - whereas nullsec is basically going to get a huge boost to refining. Minmatar outposts +10% and the rest +7% max.

Highsec refining, if these changes go live, will no longer be viable. This leads to a situation of importing your own locally mined minerals or taking the -2.8% refining tax on refining your ore with max skills (than currently). Not to mention, turning most of highsec into nullsec serfs, another source of cheap labor, as ALL the ore is going to be heading to null.

Meanwhile, nullsec is going to be producing, I mean "reprocessing", minerals at an inflation like rate.

Devblog:
In practice, that means that someone with perfect skills, implant and standings refining at a fully upgraded Minmatar outpost will receive 14.4% more reprocessed minerals than currently.

Whoever designed these changes was either naive, not really familiar with how the game works, or how it works for types of new and older players, not really well versed in how the game functions as a whole, or all of the above!

Or they took some "bad advice", from certain, more vocal "parties". This expansion will be to EvE what NGE was to a certain other game. I'm glad it wad delayed, but I don't think it will change much to what we're going to get. Highsec will be officially destroyed after this goes live. It is mainly going to be relegated to a space for obtaining cheap labor.

It's going to be industry for the few, instead of industry as a choice of career, no matter where you choose to live. Ie, highsec, lowsec or nullsec. Highsec is officially going to be gone from this picture. It is a tragedy.

I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them.

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To be clear, I do not expect any single big alliance to corner the market on teams. With something like 4000 active, half TE (lame unlimited slots so I'll just use alts to up my concurrent jobs, not worry about how long each job takes)) and half ME, that is 2000 ME. With 5 levels, that is 400 per level, assuming flat distribution. That is some 800 ME 4% and 5% teams active, and yeah.. even goons are not going to be buying up 800 teams every 28 days.

But there are scores of big alliances that have thousands of industrialists each, and hundreds that have hundreds of industrialists each.

The corps with half a dozen real-world friends, with a total of a 2 dozen accounts between them, like I've played in for the bulk of my 3 years of playing (over the last 5 years, as I've taken long breaks)? Those types of small corps are never going to be able to win a bid for a team, and unless the big guys are stupid (which I highly doubt) ,will not be able to take advantage of those teams. This means the small corps of casual players will be out of business when it comes to manufacturing.



I know the idea of making it possible to reduce your costs below what had been perfect, to generate extra profits, "sounds cool". But the market doesn't work that way. If there is a new minimum cost of manufacturing, then that is where the supply will move to. This moves price to a razor thin profit margin over this new "minimum cost". For those that can achieve the new "minimum cost of manufacture", profits will be as slim as ever. If you can't achieve the new "minimum cost of manufacture", then you're simply out of business.

Couple of things:

1. Costs and who pays them.. not something I have seen

Currently I can produce in my corporate POS and there are no additional costs. No Problem

With this change I produce out of my POS and have additional costs for loading the job, who pays for it? Corp or me? Some jobs I load for corp and we have a corp industrial divisional account to pay those costs, other jobs are mine and so I should pay the cost for putting them up out of my personal account. How is CCP going to make it easy for players to have these costs go against the correct accounts? you changed this with the new costs, now we need a mechanism to ensure the right accounts are charged.


2. when are we going to see updates on what various POS Arrays are now going to do for us? There has been a lot of talk in the forums on this.


3. I still want teams of players that can influence costs by "working" together.

4. when are we going to see changes in TE so that is does not raise costs or the ability to take and dial TE back so costs do not rise?

Have you had a look at this chart from the dev blog? Refines at 50%

Outpost bonuses:
Amarr, Caldari and Gallente outposts can be upgraded to further increase ore and ice reprocessing by 2%, 4% and 7% (for a total of 52%, 54% and 57%)
Minmatar outposts can be upgraded to add further 3%, 7% and 10% on ore and ice reprocessing rates (for a total of 53%, 57% and 60%)

So Anything but Minmatar will operate at 57%.
Minmatar will have 60%

(Remember skills now work off multiplying the station bonus.)
Their new formula: Reprocessing yield: Station Equipment x (1 + Refining skill x 0.03) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.02) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.02) )

Non math explanation, also from the blog:
... instead having the station equipment directly multiplied by skills in the new formula.

In practice, that means that someone with perfect skills, implant and standings refining at a fully upgraded Minmatar outpost will receive 14.4% more reprocessed minerals than currently.

A character that has perfect skills/standings who reprocesses at a 50% station with all skills maxed but without the 4% implant will have 2.8% less reprocessed minerals than currently.

Implant, add another 2% bonus roughly (since the first half of the bonus gets you even). Reprocessing array, another 2%, you are still left with a 10% refine bonus at an outpost, that you will never cover.

This is the bonus for Reprocessing Arrays: Arrays

A reprocessing array will only give you 52%, that is tier one refine of any outpost. A 0.3 Array will give you 54%, that is a tier two bonus. That is the max you can get from a POS.

We still have tier three being outpost only, and Minmatar being tier four of refine.

I don't think reprocessing at a 52% facility will give you a competitive refine (max refine out of highsec is tier one, 52% array), remember refine rates have been pushed down to 72.4% out of a 50% station (with the 4% implant)... The ceiling has been raised way high. So, all the ores are going to be reprocessed in null. Compression, yeah.

But if I am a miner, I can't really use my own minerals into production at a cost efficient rate, even using a reprocessing array. I will be at the mercy of the mineral market, hoping I make enough profit off of selling compressed ore to null, and buying the minerals themselves at anything remotely cost efficient - this is not taking into account broker fees and sales taxes.

That is really weird to me. Not to mention what it means for new miners.