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[Kronos] Mordu's Legion

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Author
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#241 - 2014-05-12 20:16:41 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
CCP Rise, are the capacitor stats you have listed there accurate? +2.05 Cap without skills on the Frigate is very low (Approx +3.41 with max skills) and it will not be able to even run a MWD (without anything else) permanently, running a LR point + MWD for any extended period of time will require a lot of sacrifices. Also, if the stats ARE accurate The Battleship has less cap regen per second than the Stabber does.

Initially I thought that the Garmur would be overpowered given the point range bonus, and 6.75 Effective Launchers. For reference, the Hookbill has 6 KINETIC locked launchers. The hawk has 5.32 Approx (Non Kinetic) and just under 8 Kinetic locked launchers. So this ship will have heavy selectable damage type missiles, as well as moving at near interceptor speeds, dealing AF damage. However looking at just the Capacitor stats alone it seems like it could be balanced or even, perhaps, underpowered, at least in a kiting role it will find itself unable to run point or MWD very quickly.


Yea, but like, unbonused damps literally shut these ships down, especially the frigate, and lets be honest, unbonused damps are really really common right now.

Like I said else where, the counter to these is not only really really obvious, its super common.


Hey Grath, I don't the Garmur is overpowered, I even suggested in my post that it's probably underpowered given the terrible capacitor stats on it.

All of the capacitor stats on these ships are trash. The Griffin has more Cap per second than the Cruiser does.
The Stabber has more cap per second than the Battleship does.

You will need to fit an Injector on everyone of these ships if you plan on kiting.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#242 - 2014-05-12 20:16:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Shilalasar
So at first look the Garmur is as fast as an interceptor, deals more dps than an assaultfrig while still having the same basedefenses ( without T2 resists (?)). Also able to scram while out of scramrange (what might be a way bigger OP bonus than the much debated 90% webs).
So pretty much the only way to kill it is to send a dramiel out to catch it and then someone else to actually win the fight.
This thing will shut down any FW pvp while it´s in system and I guess the AT teams are already getting sweaty palms and probably wet pants).
Actually it feels like the weightclass of some old AT second places besides the cap.
Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2014-05-12 20:18:12 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Locking ranges seem way too short given the bonus to disruptor range and missile use.

Agreed. The lock range forces these ships to use rockets/hams/torps or rapid launchers. The frigate is especially strange because it will have a 15km scram (far short of its 22km rocket range) but if you fit disruptor it only locks out to 28km and the disruptor reaches to 36km+.
I guess I can understand not wanting a frigate dancing around at 45km with light missiles while still maintaining point.


Keep in mind that's 28km before skills are applied. With Long Range Targeting IV / V, that's 33.5 / 35 km lock range; still too short to make full use of its abilities, but not quite so oppressive.

I wouldn't worry overmuch about this replacing the Crow, though. While it does a lot of things really well and will probably become a terror in Lowsec duels, part of what makes LML Interceptors so powerful is their sig tanks; a 75% reduction to MWD sig bloom is a huge, enormous boon to a ship that doesn't care about its own tracking, and the Garmur doesn't get it. Not such a big deal when you're in a 1v1 against an opponent who can't hit back, but easily a fatal difference when you're trying to do something like a Crow Fleet against armed targets (and also are in a much more expensive hull).
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#244 - 2014-05-12 20:18:18 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Yea, but like, unbonused damps literally shut these ships down, especially the frigate, and lets be honest, unbonused damps are really really common right now.

Like I said else where, the counter to these is not only really really obvious, its super common.


fof ftw?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Bagehi
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#245 - 2014-05-12 20:20:22 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out there for discussion... Barghest loses 1 launcher in exchange for a +50% missile damage bonus (9 effective launchers vs. 8.75) and gains another low slot, so 7H-6M-7L.

BARGHEST
Caldari Battleship Bonus per level: 10% bonus to missile damage
Gallente Battleship Bonus per level: 10% bonus to warp scrambler and warp disruptor range
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to missile velocity (50% penalty to missile flight time)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 6M, 7L(+1); 0 turrets, 6(-1) launchers
Fittings: 11600 PWG, 700 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 11200 / 8750 / 8100
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 6100 / 5.28
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 148 / .098 / 98467000 / 13.38s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 76km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 29
Signature radius: 370

Why would you add another low slot to a ship that so obviously is supposed to be shield tanked?
Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#246 - 2014-05-12 20:20:43 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Locking ranges seem way too short given the bonus to disruptor range and missile use.

Agreed. The lock range forces these ships to use rockets/hams/torps or rapid launchers. The frigate is especially strange because it will have a 15km scram (far short of its 22km rocket range) but if you fit disruptor it only locks out to 28km and the disruptor reaches to 36km+.
I guess I can understand not wanting a frigate dancing around at 45km with light missiles while still maintaining point.

28 km base lock range with skills and basic non boost leadership skill modification(the stuff you get for beeing in a fleet with someone that trained enough just enough leadership skills to be abled to fly a T2 battle cruiser) is 28x1.1x1.25=38.5 km lock range. Thus more then your point range.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#247 - 2014-05-12 20:20:54 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
CCP Rise, are the capacitor stats you have listed there accurate? +2.05 Cap without skills on the Frigate is very low (Approx +3.41 with max skills) and it will not be able to even run a MWD (without anything else) permanently, running a LR point + MWD for any extended period of time will require a lot of sacrifices. Also, if the stats ARE accurate The Battleship has less cap regen per second than the Stabber does.

Initially I thought that the Garmur would be overpowered given the point range bonus, and 6.75 Effective Launchers. For reference, the Hookbill has 6 KINETIC locked launchers. The hawk has 5.32 Approx (Non Kinetic) and just under 8 Kinetic locked launchers. So this ship will have heavy selectable damage type missiles, as well as moving at near interceptor speeds, dealing AF damage. However looking at just the Capacitor stats alone it seems like it could be balanced or even, perhaps, underpowered, at least in a kiting role it will find itself unable to run point or MWD very quickly.


Yea, but like, unbonused damps literally shut these ships down, especially the frigate, and lets be honest, unbonused damps are really really common right now.

Like I said else where, the counter to these is not only really really obvious, its super common.


Hey Grath, I don't the Garmur is overpowered, I even suggested in my post that it's probably underpowered given the terrible capacitor stats on it.

All of the capacitor stats on these ships are trash. The Griffin has more Cap per second than the Cruiser does.
The Stabber has more cap per second than the Battleship does.

You will need to fit an Injector on everyone of these ships if you plan on kiting.


Yea, 100% man, people screaming about their power levels aren't really looking at the broader picture of what they'll fight against in the current environments you'll see them in.

The ships have some strong power, don't get me wrong, but the down sides are super evident when you look at the package as a whole.

Damps, any neuting at all for any reason, blank them out.

Oddly though, they have a slightly higher SS than most Pirate faction BS (which we both know will me F-All when EC300s get on them but its still nice and a nod towards their caldari background)

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Wu Fey
Devil's Evil Spirits
#248 - 2014-05-12 20:21:42 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Wu Fey wrote:
Did we not have a sufficient number of kiting shield tanked missile ships?

I feel like we did.

Maybe some missile armor brawlers? Anyone? Bueller?



maybe ammatar?

missile/armor beasts?


Right now ham legion is about it. You can fit up a ham prophecy, but its actually a drone ship. Typhoon is a good armor missile BS but it emphasizes speed, not brawling. The Sacrilege should be this, but for some reason it got a range bonus. Damnation also gets a range bonus. Ugh Not many options.

I was going to make a list of shield missile kiters, but I ran out of characters. Lol

It is also strange to me that the design seems to be centered around catering to the FW kitey crap. Wouldn't it be more interesting to provide alternate strategies that can mix up the current meta? This seems to just trump the current meta by being better at the same thing.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#249 - 2014-05-12 20:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Holy crap...dat frig and cruiser dps... you'll be doing upwards of 300 with the frig, and upwards of 500, possibly 600 with the cruiser. This is going to be amazing.

The missile bonuses you have set up are absolutely brilliant. The massive velocity increase means that damage can apply more realistically, especially with javelins on the garmur. The dps on the cruiser and frigate might be a little too powerful, but we'll have to see. I'm extremely interested to see how their stats play out in a solo/small gang fight.

I am also extremely wary of the fact that while you are admittedly doing a decent job of making them found in asteroid belt drops, the alarming fact remains that you are going to bottleneck the SINGLE GORRAM STATION in the game that they own to hell, and turn it a clusterf*ck horrible beyond words can describe.
The ONLY viable way for you to solve this issue, that eliminates severe issues with availability and player bottlenecking, is to instead of adding entire stations, add some in-space agents in their area of space in pure blind, and possibly elsewhere. Every faction in the game has them as cosmos agents, but it's fairly easy to make these just basic event agents that you can repeatedly work for.

This works for several reasons:

Firstly, the open-space availability means that people can pick these up in cloaky ships to avoid getting splattered on the undock by the legions of pirates who will no doubt be camping the SINGLE GORRAM STATION in the game they own. Already you are starting to see people piling into the mordus system in anticipation, and piracy is on the rise around there. Make the in-space event agents a reality along with keeping the drop system, and I promise you that you will receive no legitimate negative feedback.

Secondly, the introduction of in-space agents follows lore lines appropriately, with them being mercenaries and all. It makes a great deal of sense that you'd find a lot of them setting up their own shop in space for capsuleers to line up to, and assist them in subsidizing their missions. Agents in space is an extremely appropriate way to handle pve in nullsec to start out with, but it makes far more sense for a mobile military group like Mordu's Legion to be operating with that dynamic. Having them in lowsec areas around different places in empire space would be ideal. What would you think about adding some of their npc event agents in FW space?

Thirdly, you can bet that with as strong as you're making them that the demand for them is going to be just as absurdly high as the sisters ships. These are going to be premium hot-ticket items as popular with pirates and elite small-combat groups as the angel cartel ships once were before the balance. With this current setup, you will not be able through any stretch of the imagination be able to have the supply keep up with the demand, so it is more than likely that once the prices do level off, the garmur will stay at upwards of 200 million isk, and the Orthrus will cost more than a tengu that can kick its ass in a fight any day of the week.

Please consider all the points I have raised here, since while the lowsec seeding idea is a good one, traditional forms of pve for ship acquisition have to be upheld for the sake of the market. You will cry out in terror on release day when you realize how badly this is going for you, so please take a look at the plan for their distribution now, while you have time to experiment then after release day when you have thousands of angry players screaming at you from the murderous cesspool that the undock in their pure blind station will be.

EDIT: After reading through the comments section, I can safely say that it is CONFIRMED that they will have lowsec agents. Where they will be we don't know, but this alleviates some of my concerns. Seeding more of them both in low and null WOULD still be ideal though, to prevent bottlenecking. Having more than a few lvl 4 agents to choose from would be excellent. since I literally have them as my highest standing faction in the game.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#250 - 2014-05-12 20:25:20 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Holy crap...dat frig and cruiser dps... you'll be doing upwards of 300 with the frig, .


Actually rockets (the highest DPS from frig based missiles) is only about 170 dps

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#251 - 2014-05-12 20:25:25 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Open Graves wrote:
Are those missile bonus including rapid launchers?
Do they include rockets and HAMs as well?

This. It would appear that the missile bonuses apply to all missile types regardless?



Wow.
Well losec ratting will get VERY popular!
Need to digest figures, and this seems a great Pirate ship in the way the rattlesnake Isn't.
CCP. Nice Job!
glad you were able to spend the time needed on this one.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#252 - 2014-05-12 20:26:21 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
So at first look the Garmur is as fast as an interceptor, deals more dps than an assaultfrig while still having the same basedefenses ( without T2 resists (?)). Also able to scram while out of scramrange (what might be a way bigger OP bonus than the much debated 90% webs).
So pretty much the only way to kill it is to send a dramiel out to catch it and then someone else to actually win the fight.
This thing will shut down any FW pvp while it´s in system and I guess the AT teams are already getting sweaty palms and probably wet pants).
Actually it feels like the weightclass of some old AT second places besides the cap.


This was my honest first opinion too. But if you take a closer look at the stats, specifically the capacitor and the lock range stats. I actually think that these ships are balanced, or maybe even vulnerable. All of these ships have the worst capacitor regen per second in the game compared to their counterparts.

The NOOBSHIPS have almost the same cap regen per second as the Mordus battleship does. (Again, these may be an error made by CCP Rise, but it's looking more like it's an intentional part of the balancing).

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#253 - 2014-05-12 20:31:14 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Holy crap...dat frig and cruiser dps... you'll be doing upwards of 300 with the frig, .


Actually rockets (the highest DPS from frig based missiles) is only about 170 dps


Hmm...I think I will revise my numbers somewhat. 200-220 dps seems more accurate. But I am right about that cruiser. The dps is going to be frightening on it.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#254 - 2014-05-12 20:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Holy crap...dat frig and cruiser dps... you'll be doing upwards of 300 with the frig, .


Actually rockets (the highest DPS from frig based missiles) is only about 170 dps


Hmm...I think I will revise my numbers somewhat. 200-220 dps seems more accurate. But I am right about that cruiser. The dps is going to be frightening on it.


http://i.imgur.com/nGNLCqr.png

I was over on the DPS by a bit, its pretty low, the cruiser should be around the other cruisers in the 7-800 range, lower than some t1 vanilla cruisers but nearly the same as some of the other pirate factions, below a few hacs, above a few others.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Sascha Naskingar
SoE Silver Eagles
#255 - 2014-05-12 20:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sascha Naskingar
Suitonia wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
So at first look the Garmur is as fast as an interceptor, deals more dps than an assaultfrig while still having the same basedefenses ( without T2 resists (?)). Also able to scram while out of scramrange (what might be a way bigger OP bonus than the much debated 90% webs).
So pretty much the only way to kill it is to send a dramiel out to catch it and then someone else to actually win the fight.
This thing will shut down any FW pvp while it´s in system and I guess the AT teams are already getting sweaty palms and probably wet pants).
Actually it feels like the weightclass of some old AT second places besides the cap.


This was my honest first opinion too. But if you take a closer look at the stats, specifically the capacitor and the lock range stats. I actually think that these ships are balanced, or maybe even vulnerable. All of these ships have the worst capacitor regen per second in the game compared to their counterparts.

The NOOBSHIPS have almost the same cap regen per second as the Mordus battleship does. (Again, these may be an error made by CCP Rise, but it's looking more like it's an intentional part of the balancing).



I'm sorry, but i'm pretty sure your maths is out on this, from what i can work out the Garmur actually has the same base capacitor and more regen than a Fed Navy Comet, likewise the BS has better cap regen than a domi navy, so it really isnt as bad as you think it is.
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#256 - 2014-05-12 20:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Suitonia
Sascha Naskingar wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
So at first look the Garmur is as fast as an interceptor, deals more dps than an assaultfrig while still having the same basedefenses ( without T2 resists (?)). Also able to scram while out of scramrange (what might be a way bigger OP bonus than the much debated 90% webs).
So pretty much the only way to kill it is to send a dramiel out to catch it and then someone else to actually win the fight.
This thing will shut down any FW pvp while it´s in system and I guess the AT teams are already getting sweaty palms and probably wet pants).
Actually it feels like the weightclass of some old AT second places besides the cap.


This was my honest first opinion too. But if you take a closer look at the stats, specifically the capacitor and the lock range stats. I actually think that these ships are balanced, or maybe even vulnerable. All of these ships have the worst capacitor regen per second in the game compared to their counterparts.

The NOOBSHIPS have almost the same cap regen per second as the Mordus battleship does. (Again, these may be an error made by CCP Rise, but it's looking more like it's an intentional part of the balancing).



I'm sorry, but i'm pretty sure your maths is out on this, from what i can work out the Garmur actually has the same base capacitor and more regen than a Fed Navy Comet, likewise the BS has better cap regen than a domi navy, so it really isnt as bad as you think it is.


I was basing it on the cap per second figures that CCP rise put in the thread.
Although, it could be that I was looking at the figures wrong, I was comparing it to the peak recharge with no skills in Eve Fitting Tool, but it seems like the one listed by rise might just be the Average regen rather than the peak (unfortunately he did not include the recharge time in the original figures). so I could well be wrong.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#257 - 2014-05-12 20:50:08 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Holy crap...dat frig and cruiser dps... you'll be doing upwards of 300 with the frig, .


Actually rockets (the highest DPS from frig based missiles) is only about 170 dps


Hmm...I think I will revise my numbers somewhat. 200-220 dps seems more accurate. But I am right about that cruiser. The dps is going to be frightening on it.


http://i.imgur.com/nGNLCqr.png

I was over on the DPS by a bit, its pretty low, the cruiser should be around the other cruisers in the 7-800 range, lower than some t1 vanilla cruisers but nearly the same as some of the other pirate factions, below a few hacs, above a few others.

Not using t2 ammo on t2 rockets?
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#258 - 2014-05-12 20:51:13 UTC
Sploosh.






Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#259 - 2014-05-12 20:53:45 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Holy crap...dat frig and cruiser dps... you'll be doing upwards of 300 with the frig, .


Actually rockets (the highest DPS from frig based missiles) is only about 170 dps


Hmm...I think I will revise my numbers somewhat. 200-220 dps seems more accurate. But I am right about that cruiser. The dps is going to be frightening on it.


http://i.imgur.com/nGNLCqr.png

I was over on the DPS by a bit, its pretty low, the cruiser should be around the other cruisers in the 7-800 range, lower than some t1 vanilla cruisers but nearly the same as some of the other pirate factions, below a few hacs, above a few others.

Not using t2 ammo on t2 rockets?


T2 rockets don't apply that well to most Frigates (Particularly AB ones), even when you have a web.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Sascha Naskingar
SoE Silver Eagles
#260 - 2014-05-12 20:54:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sascha Naskingar
Suitonia wrote:
Sascha Naskingar wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
So at first look the Garmur is as fast as an interceptor, deals more dps than an assaultfrig while still having the same basedefenses ( without T2 resists (?)). Also able to scram while out of scramrange (what might be a way bigger OP bonus than the much debated 90% webs).
So pretty much the only way to kill it is to send a dramiel out to catch it and then someone else to actually win the fight.
This thing will shut down any FW pvp while it´s in system and I guess the AT teams are already getting sweaty palms and probably wet pants).
Actually it feels like the weightclass of some old AT second places besides the cap.


This was my honest first opinion too. But if you take a closer look at the stats, specifically the capacitor and the lock range stats. I actually think that these ships are balanced, or maybe even vulnerable. All of these ships have the worst capacitor regen per second in the game compared to their counterparts.

The NOOBSHIPS have almost the same cap regen per second as the Mordus battleship does. (Again, these may be an error made by CCP Rise, but it's looking more like it's an intentional part of the balancing).



I'm sorry, but i'm pretty sure your maths is out on this, from what i can work out the Garmur actually has the same base capacitor and more regen than a Fed Navy Comet, likewise the BS has better cap regen than a domi navy, so it really isnt as bad as you think it is.


I was basing it on the cap per second figures that CCP rise put in the thread.


Which is in the same format as they have done in every ballancing post to date, the way they lay it out is confusing if you dont know what you're looking at.

Look at the pirate ship reballancing posts here in F&I and you'll see that these have better cap regen than half the other pirate faction ships.

The ingame figure for the cap recharge on the garmur (in the ship info) would be 195.12s