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Why Eve isn't more popular?

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Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#621 - 2014-05-22 13:45:41 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Well, it's not very enjoyable,(and it's) incredibly repetitive

Welcome to GD Lol

Turdas Tundra wrote:
and the game is built around PVP anyway if you want me to state my opinion on it. Once you leave high sec, it is the PVP world and that's just how it is.


Except when it isnt, which is most of the time, if thats what you enjoy


Sorry, let me explain that I didn't mean that you have to leave high sec, I just meant that if you transition to PVE in low/null sec, like wormholes and other exploration/missions, then the PVE turns into PVP essentially.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#622 - 2014-05-22 13:46:31 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
if these people need to be hand-held into the fun stuff of EVE, they shouldn't be playing EVE in the 1st place.

no, they shouldn't be hand-held into it. but an indication that the fun stuff exists from the game'd be great.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#623 - 2014-05-22 13:54:01 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:


It's actually notoriously bad and a hell of a lot of people agree with this, as I said, it is criminally underdeveloped. But as I also said, it is a PVP game, so perhaps they should stop herding new players into the dull aspects of the game like mission grinding and waiting for your mining laser to finish.


The problem here then is your mindset.

Have you ever done an anomaly with a remote repping - microwarpdriving - Ogre spewing ECM bursting- capstable dominix?

I have.

Have you ever null sec belt ratted in a warp core stabbed Typhoon while neutrals were in local and all of a sudden a ship appears, points you and lights a cyno and you just warp off laughing in local?

I have.

Have you ever taken a Bastion Mode/Double XLASB Vargur into a Blood Raider 10/10 to solo it and only just popped the station/overseer as your LAST load of cap charges were loading into your shield booster.

I have.

Have you been shooting Clone Soldier ships in null only to have someone try to poach the tag so you shoot them and their friends come and and shoot you and you call friend and the next thing you know it's a cap fight?

I have.

Ever done a lvl 4 mission in an assault frig and saved the damsel (after shooting the wrong damn station, why are their TWO of the same damn station in that mission) and docked up with 2% structure left.

I have.

I had FUN doing those things. H have fun doing Gone Berserk in a Tornado or lauging at the NPCs being unable to break my machariel tank in angel bonus room. YOU make your fun in EVE, even in PVE, not the other way around.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#624 - 2014-05-22 13:55:15 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
if these people need to be hand-held into the fun stuff of EVE, they shouldn't be playing EVE in the 1st place.

no, they shouldn't be hand-held into it. but an indication that the fun stuff exists from the game'd be great.


As i said. Google (and talking to people). Did technology or language decline at some point after 2007 when i started lol?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#625 - 2014-05-22 13:56:11 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Sorry, let me explain that I didn't mean that you have to leave high sec, I just meant that if you transition to PVE in low/null sec, like wormholes and other exploration/missions, then the PVE turns into PVP essentially.


Oh I was sure you didnt mean that anyone HAS to leave highsec.

I meant that if you feel forced to engaged in ship to ship combat you arent avoiding it well enough

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#626 - 2014-05-22 13:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Turdas Tundra
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Sorry, let me explain that I didn't mean that you have to leave high sec, I just meant that if you transition to PVE in low/null sec, like wormholes and other exploration/missions, then the PVE turns into PVP essentially.


Oh I was sure you didnt mean that anyone HAS to leave highsec.

I meant that if you feel forced to engaged in ship to ship combat you arent avoiding it well enough


Yep, you are right, but even avoiding ships and such is still PVP mechanics I guess.

Jenn aSide wrote:
[quote=Turdas Tundra]

*snip*


But does PVE have to be so boring as a baseline that you have to make your own fun? Like I guess you could argue being locked in solitary confinement is fun if you have a powerful enough imagination to make your own fun in there...
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#627 - 2014-05-22 14:01:56 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Yep, you are right, but even avoiding ships and such is still PVP mechanics I guess.


I suppose, if you want to put it like that

This would mean that there is no PvE in EvE at all, as they are mechanics you should be using during missions too

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#628 - 2014-05-22 14:05:17 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Yep, you are right, but even avoiding ships and such is still PVP mechanics I guess.


I suppose, if you want to put it like that

This would mean that there is no PvE in EvE at all, as they are mechanics you should be using during missions too


Well I would say that high sec missions and exploration is strictly PVE, which is where I have a problem with it being dull. When we get into Low/Null sec it starts becoming quite PVP orientated too considering you can be blown up by players, but also way more enjoyable too.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#629 - 2014-05-22 14:07:17 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:

I suppose, if you want to put it like that

This would mean that there is no PvE in EvE at all, as they are mechanics you should be using during missions too


Well I would say that high sec missions and exploration is strictly PVE, which is where I have a problem with it being dull. When we get into Low/Null sec it starts becoming quite PVP orientated too considering you can be blown up by players, but also way more enjoyable too.


You don't stay aware of potential enemies while you do missions in High Sec?

Well, that's your look out I guess.

Where is it you usually mission again? I fancy trying some of that "secure" grinding ;)

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#630 - 2014-05-22 14:12:26 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:
But does PVE have to be so boring as a baseline that you have to make your own fun? Like I guess you could argue being locked in solitary confinement is fun if you have a powerful enough imagination to make your own fun in there...

I think it's hip to poke fun at EVE's missions. They are quite repetitive of course, but players of the sandboxy Skyrim say the same thing about missions in that game.

Do you have any specific examples of non-boring PVE in other games? My understanding is that most other MMO games provide PVE challenges in the form of twitchy button pushing (EVE is the only MMO I've played, so correct me if I'm wrong). I've watched a few videos of WoW dungeon teamplay and find it incredibly boring.

People in help channel are constantly challenged by PVE elements, especially L3+ and lowsec/nullsec explo/ratting. These challenges are not because they can't hit buttons fast enough or in the right order, but because their strategy/tactics isn't enough to win the challenge. I don't think tactical PVE is common. I think strategic PVE is nearly non-existent (except in single player games like Civilization). What do you think?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#631 - 2014-05-22 14:14:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
if these people need to be hand-held into the fun stuff of EVE, they shouldn't be playing EVE in the 1st place.

no, they shouldn't be hand-held into it. but an indication that the fun stuff exists from the game'd be great.


As i said. Google (and talking to people). Did technology or language decline at some point after 2007 when i started lol?

it's not acceptable for newbies to have to rely on outside sources for information on their game. i do care about roping more newbies into playing the real game because i don't believe they're any less desirable community members for not having trawled often outdated or inaccurate outside sources to find out what's possible.

if they're shown what's possible and how to do it and they like it, i think they're welcome. that's very different from railing them into it as other games do.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#632 - 2014-05-22 14:19:12 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:


But does PVE have to be so boring as a baseline that you have to make your own fun? Like I guess you could argue being locked in solitary confinement is fun if you have a powerful enough imagination to make your own fun in there...


It's not solitary confinement, it's GenPop. solitary confinement is other MMOs lol.

EVE is a sandbox game. You make your own fun whether PVP or PVE. It's like a "BYOB strip club", the house will sell you the 'set ups', but your provide the liquor lol.

I like it that way, the liquor I bring won't be the watered down horsecrap the house would have sold me if they had a liquor license. likewise I can make a MUCH more interesting time for myself than some game developer in a thempark MMO can, even in PVE.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#633 - 2014-05-22 14:21:39 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:

it's not acceptable for newbies to have to rely on outside sources for information on their game. i do care about roping more newbies into playing the real game because i don't believe they're any less desirable community members for not having trawled often outdated or inaccurate outside sources to find out what's possible.

if they're shown what's possible and how to do it and they like it, i think they're welcome. that's very different from railing them into it as other games do.


I agree with you on one hand; If you are a nice person and want the game to be accessible to all, then by all means improve the entrance requirements

BUT

If you prefer people who can grasp the initiative, love learning, love finding out how something works and arent afraid of a bit of work and have patience, they will rise to the top soon enough. Infact, letting these people know there is PvE at all can put them off.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#634 - 2014-05-22 14:22:44 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
it's not acceptable for newbies to have to rely on outside sources for information on their game. i do care about roping more newbies into playing the real game because i don't believe they're any less desirable community members for not having trawled often outdated or inaccurate outside sources to find out what's possible.

I agree with this to an extent. Having to send people to Google for stupid, basic things in the game (like scanning or PI or the @#$! CSPA charge) because they have zero documentation in the game is bad. It's as bad as having to look at a footnote in a nice piece of fiction. It's a shortcoming of the author who doesn't incorporate vital cues and information right into the main text.

On the other hand, more advanced techniques like fits or PVP tactics should be researched from 1st and 3rd party sites and the information should be complex and scattered (as it is, to discourage lazy gamers).

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#635 - 2014-05-22 14:25:06 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
if these people need to be hand-held into the fun stuff of EVE, they shouldn't be playing EVE in the 1st place.

no, they shouldn't be hand-held into it. but an indication that the fun stuff exists from the game'd be great.


As i said. Google (and talking to people). Did technology or language decline at some point after 2007 when i started lol?

it's not acceptable for newbies to have to rely on outside sources for information on their game. i do care about roping more newbies into playing the real game because i don't believe they're any less desirable community members for not having trawled often outdated or inaccurate outside sources to find out what's possible.

if they're shown what's possible and how to do it and they like it, i think they're welcome. that's very different from railing them into it as other games do.


How is talking to people in the game "outside sources of information".

Even beyond that, EVE is all about outside sources of information. The wiki, EVEMON, EFT/PYFA/ EVE-survival ect ect. EVE has survived this long with damn near no internal documentation of a lot of things and with crappy attempts at tutorials. This is a good thing because it means that most of the people playing or of a quality that can handle having to look outside the game or talk to real people to get anywhere.

If you have to so much as offer them a pop up in a newb system, they aren't EVE material IMO and CCP should not be catering to them. CCP should be searching for more "EVE-like" people to play EVE if growth is that important to them.
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#636 - 2014-05-22 14:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Turdas Tundra
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

it's not acceptable for newbies to have to rely on outside sources for information on their game. i do care about roping more newbies into playing the real game because i don't believe they're any less desirable community members for not having trawled often outdated or inaccurate outside sources to find out what's possible.

if they're shown what's possible and how to do it and they like it, i think they're welcome. that's very different from railing them into it as other games do.


I agree with you on one hand; If you are a nice person and want the game to be accessible to all, then by all means improve the entrance requirements

BUT

If you prefer people who can grasp the initiative, love learning, love finding out how something works and arent afraid of a bit of work and have patience, they will rise to the top soon enough. Infact, letting these people know there is PvE at all can put them off.


I can agree with that, but new players can't exactly rise to the top, the longer you wait to play EVE the weaker your character is compared to everyone else who have started before you, knowledge of the game aside.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#637 - 2014-05-22 14:29:58 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:


I can agree with that, but new players can't exactly rise to the top, the longer you wait to play EVE the weaker your character is compared to everyone else who have started before you, knowledge of the game aside.


Knowledge of the game is THE most important skill in playing

And I dont understand the rest of it. I assume you mean SPs? The ones you learn very quickly at the start and slow down the older you get? The ones that determine that within 2 months you can have a maxed out Frigate with 5 in everything it needs and a 10 year old veteran cant exceed? Those SPs?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#638 - 2014-05-22 14:33:48 UTC
Neutrino Sunset wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Step 1, the first, low-level, not-uselessly-abstract thing you do to improve PvE is... what?
Here's a few.

Replace mission, exploration, anomaly and belt rats with fewer harder rats with Incursion grade AI.

Make rats warp off if you don't point them, unless you can alpha them before they warp of course.

Make all NPC and player ewar behave the same.

Create more mission agents of all levels in low, and NPC nullsec.


Sure, go nuts. These won't actually make the PvE any more engaging (I mean, you've basically set the bar at "incursions" which... aren't that engaging) and will require an enormous amount of resources to rebalance all of the PvE in the game, but they're not awful beyond that.

This one, though...

Quote:
Add more mission arcs several times a year. Make some of them hard enough that it demands cooperative play.


So, now you've basically signed us up for a WoW-esque dev-cycle.

"Drop new raids several times a year," is exactly the problem I was talking about with the inherently consumable nature of PvE content. You have to waste resources on it forever to satiate people who are constantly expecting fresh new content to consume. Just be sure they can kill the time between releases farming the arcs over and over and over for their Tier 3 set armor, etc. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#639 - 2014-05-22 14:34:04 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:


I can agree with that, but new players can't exactly rise to the top, the longer you wait to play EVE the weaker your character is compared to everyone else who have started before you, knowledge of the game aside.


Knowledge of the game is THE most important skill in playing

And I dont understand the rest of it. I assume you mean SPs? The ones you learn very quickly at the start and slow down the older you get? The ones that determine that within 2 months you can have a maxed out Frigate with 5 in everything it needs and a 10 year old veteran cant exceed? Those SPs?


Let's just say I wish I started playing EVE in 2004.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#640 - 2014-05-22 14:36:44 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:


Let's just say I wish I started playing EVE in 2004.


Why?

I mean, apart from to experience the awesome that was a three-engined Curse

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann