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Why Eve isn't more popular?

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Otin Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
#521 - 2014-05-21 20:03:28 UTC
I really can't be bothered to read all 26 pages to find the answer so, I'll just drop the,
"Because, Grrr Goons" here ... Big smile

[sorry, couldn't resist]
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#522 - 2014-05-21 20:23:58 UTC
I find it funny that those people who find the 'fanboy' accusation offensive due to it being name-calling.

These people are working SO hard to define PvE as something 'worthless' when, executed correctly,
is anything but?

A previous poster even tried to define those who enjoy PvE as "bottom-of-the-barrell".
Now, that view is entirely subject to that persons point-of-view, with no actual merit.
When I run PvE, I tend to run with a group. Sure, much of the current missions may
be run solo, and that is fine. That is not what I do. I pull people together, we run missions/
anomalies/incursions, and we get by on it. The problem is, much of the content available
is quite stale for those who like taking on co-operative PvE challenges.

Now, here is the beautiful thing.

What entertains me about EVE is that it is about freedom of choice.
Free to gank, free to grief (within the EULA), free to pirate to your heart's content...
but for those who wish to work together, it seems like what options that are available
are but poorly-crafted illusions. And that goes into what makes me stay (at all). The interaction with
other players.

Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still
retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish), and I believe that
player retention, as posted by the OP's article, would grow, and the community would be
better off. Cater to the Veteran Players by allowing their decisions, their investments, sacrifices,
etc. to still pay off, (as well as new PvE content to actually catch their interest), and cater to the
newbros, providing a shinier path to the cookie (without actually giving it to them directly, because this
IS EVE. Work for that cookie!)

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#523 - 2014-05-21 20:33:23 UTC
Vivec Septim wrote:

Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still
retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish)


Those two things are mutually incompatible.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2014-05-21 20:50:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:
Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish)

Those two things are mutually incompatible.

No, they really aren't. There is no reason new PvE would explicitly or even indirectly necessitate reducing competitive opportunities. It usually turns into the complete opposite actually.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#525 - 2014-05-21 21:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Vivec Septim wrote:
I find it funny that those people who find the 'fanboy' accusation offensive due to it being name-calling.

These people are working SO hard to define PvE as something 'worthless' when, executed correctly,
is anything but?

A previous poster even tried to define those who enjoy PvE as "bottom-of-the-barrell".
Now, that view is entirely subject to that persons point-of-view, with no actual merit.
When I run PvE, I tend to run with a group. Sure, much of the current missions may
be run solo, and that is fine. That is not what I do. I pull people together, we run missions/
anomalies/incursions, and we get by on it. The problem is, much of the content available
is quite stale for those who like taking on co-operative PvE challenges.

Now, here is the beautiful thing.

What entertains me about EVE is that it is about freedom of choice.
Free to gank, free to grief (within the EULA), free to pirate to your heart's content...
but for those who wish to work together, it seems like what options that are available
are but poorly-crafted illusions. And that goes into what makes me stay (at all). The interaction with
other players.

Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still
retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish), and I believe that
player retention, as posted by the OP's article, would grow, and the community would be
better off. Cater to the Veteran Players by allowing their decisions, their investments, sacrifices,
etc. to still pay off, (as well as new PvE content to actually catch their interest), and cater to the
newbros, providing a shinier path to the cookie (without actually giving it to them directly, because this
IS EVE. Work for that cookie!)



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4622870#post4622870

More of the same, really. This is pretty much just a meaningless word-salad.

CCP Rise (paraphrased): Players come out of the NPE and turn into missioners leveling up their raven and this is a problem. We're going to address this problem by making the NPE do a better job of making players aware of the diverse gameplay options so hopefully they will not just slide straight into the solo PvE role that has them leaving the game in a few months.

You: MOAR PVE!

Do you not see the obvious disconnect between what you think is important and the actual subject?

Do you not understand how the potential ROI of making new players aware of existing content and content-creation "hooks" vastly exceeds what could ever hope to be achieved by new canned content that everyone will have mastered inside of 3 months?

Teaching people to make their own content has no shelf life.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#526 - 2014-05-21 21:11:30 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kind of silly to say that the players are supposed to create the content themselves. I mean would you give a bunch of kids a block of ice and tell them to go "create a sculpture"? What do you think they're going to do? By the time they're done you'll have a pile of slush, not an elegant swan.



I find it humorous that you didn't even come to the same conclusion the kids would: take the slush and make slushballs to pelt each other with.

There is a reason EVE is called a sandbox. You're dumped onto the beach and told "Go do something interesting." What the developers give you are beach balls, buckets, shovels, and other tools with the intent of helping you come up with something interesting.

Coming into EVE and expecting CCP to spoon feed you content is like me going over to WoW and expecting to be able to build a house, surround it with traps, and prey on Alliance and Horde travelers alike as some sort of bandit king. Which would be frickin' awesome, but I can't do it because games like WoW are geared towards people with no imagination who would rather grind "PvE Encounter #687" than actually think of something themselves.


To bad the beach they drop you off on is in 1944 France
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#527 - 2014-05-21 21:21:33 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4622870#post4622870

More of the same, really. This is pretty much just a meaningless word-salad.

CCP Rise (paraphrased) Players come out of the NPE and turn into missioners leveling up their raven and this is a problem. We're going to address this problem by making the NPE do a better job of making players aware of the diverse gameplay options so hopefully they will not just slide straight into the solo PvE role that has them leaving the game in a few months.

You: MOAR PVE!

Do you not see the obvious disconnect between what you think is important and the actual subject?

Do you not understand how the potential ROI of making new players aware of existing content and content-creation "hooks" vastly exceeds what could ever hope to be achieved by new canned content that everyone will have mastered inside of 3 months?
Interestingly, I'd like to find out what he thinks people who are leveling their ravens aren't aware of. Or more importantly, if he's aware that cooperative interaction that isn't based on forming collectives to prey upon other collectives has little in the way of room to evolve currently. Lastly, if he is aware, does he care, or does he think all cooperative work should eventually evolve into the players involved wanting to engage in direct player v player conflict despite having potentially no particular desire for it prior.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#528 - 2014-05-21 21:33:11 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:
Well, in PvP terms, allow them to create their content.

There is nothing wrong in wanting something 'more' than what we have
currently from PvE missions.

One idea that I put forth is allowing players to 'craft' missions, submitting them to CCP, and potentially seeing them
in mission rotations.

Why not just GM a mission for your corpies or for other corpies?

If other sections of the community dont need CCP support to create content, why do you?



Well said. This is also the answer to the dumb question of "how does CCP 'improving' PVE make it themepark-ish".

I'm a pve player but I think pve is pretty ok as it is. My 'opposition' (if you can call it that) comes from the same source as my opposition to WiS development: Most of what people ask for (WiS or PVE) basically end up being things that let people NOT interact much with other people in space where they are in some form of danger.

Keeping the people (themeparkers) who would stay if the 'non-people' part of the game (PVE) were better is directly opposite of what CCP should be doing. If anything, CCP should do more to attract and retain SANDBOX players and you do that with pvp (both direct and indirect, while dodging the people trying to kill me while I PVE outside of high sec, I am engaging in indirect pvp) and with more and improved tools with which to interact with people.

EVE pve is already about perfect in style for sandbox players, because if you want it to be 'fun' you have to make it fun. Asking CCP to make if fun for you is anti-Sandbox and Anti-EVE.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#529 - 2014-05-21 21:37:43 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:

Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still
retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish)


Those two things are mutually incompatible.


+1

Why do people who want peaceful co-existence play a game where most of it's content (ships) can mount copious amounts of firearms? It's like joining the *insert initials of a white robe and pointy hat wearing hate group whose name is censored on these forums* because you love 'ethnic folk and immigrants' and want to be their friends.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#530 - 2014-05-21 21:40:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:

Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still
retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish)


Those two things are mutually incompatible.


+1

Why do people who want peaceful co-existence play a game where most of it's content (ships) can mount copious amounts of firearms? It's like joining the *insert initials of a white robe and pointy hat wearing hate group whose name is censored on these forums* because you love 'ethnic folk and immigrants' and want to be their friends.
Probably because the game was advertised as a sandbox, in which a largely peaceful existence is a valid for of play rather than being advertized as COD in space. Gonna have to be careful not to fall for that one again.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#531 - 2014-05-21 21:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
OK, since we're on a tangent about CCP Rise's NPE presentation: he was talking about people leveling their Raven because that's where the NPE directed them. He specifically said that some people enjoy that. A fair number of people don't.

The main problem I have with the phrase "leveling their Raven" is that by the time you've leveled a Raven, you've reached some of the most interesting and rewarding PVE the game has to offer. The real problem is people trying to level their destroyers and Ventures because they don't have any point of entry into the other parts of the game, and because low-end PVE in EVE is particularly terrible. (The tutorial is even terrible about setting a new player up for PVE: hands up, who learned about the various Social skills from an in game source? Anyone? Is it even possible?) Getting into the other parts of the game is not easy, so even players who want in need some way to pass the time and learn and train while they sort out the best way to introduce themselves to people they want to fly with who are doing what they want to do--especially tricky given that they may have no idea what they'd actually enjoy doing until they actually try it.

It's not enough to say that the solution is any one thing. More engaging PVE would certainly help, but not enough. Better ways to connect players together would also help. A tutorial that encouraged players to learn by doing would really help.

Fundamentally, though, any game where a brand-new character could be a wide-eyed newbie or a safari alt, or spy, is going to be difficult to break into. And to a certain degree, that's OK. EVE doesn't need WoW numbers. It only needs to have enough people to do better than merely subsist as a game.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#532 - 2014-05-21 21:48:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:
Well, in PvP terms, allow them to create their content.

There is nothing wrong in wanting something 'more' than what we have
currently from PvE missions.

One idea that I put forth is allowing players to 'craft' missions, submitting them to CCP, and potentially seeing them
in mission rotations.

Why not just GM a mission for your corpies or for other corpies?

If other sections of the community dont need CCP support to create content, why do you?



Well said. This is also the answer to the dumb question of "how does CCP 'improving' PVE make it themepark-ish".

I'm a pve player but I think pve is pretty ok as it is. My 'opposition' (if you can call it that) comes from the same source as my opposition to WiS development: Most of what people ask for (WiS or PVE) basically end up being things that let people NOT interact much with other people in space where they are in some form of danger.

Keeping the people (themeparkers) who would stay if the 'non-people' part of the game (PVE) were better is directly opposite of what CCP should be doing. If anything, CCP should do more to attract and retain SANDBOX players and you do that with pvp (both direct and indirect, while dodging the people trying to kill me while I PVE outside of high sec, I am engaging in indirect pvp) and with more and improved tools with which to interact with people.

EVE pve is already about perfect in style for sandbox players, because if you want it to be 'fun' you have to make it fun. Asking CCP to make if fun for you is anti-Sandbox and Anti-EVE.


What absolute tosh there is room for everything within Eve, asking for more PVE content does nothing to hurt PVP, and you can't force ppl to go down a road they don't want to travel, it's a sand box who are you to dictate anybody else's play style ?


Tal

Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#533 - 2014-05-21 21:49:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:

Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still
retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish)


Those two things are mutually incompatible.


No they are not

Tal


Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#534 - 2014-05-21 21:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Galen Darksmith
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:

Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still
retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish)


Those two things are mutually incompatible.


+1

Why do people who want peaceful co-existence play a game where most of it's content (ships) can mount copious amounts of firearms? It's like joining the *insert initials of a white robe and pointy hat wearing hate group whose name is censored on these forums* because you love 'ethnic folk and immigrants' and want to be their friends.
Probably because the game was advertised as a sandbox, in which a largely peaceful existence is a valid for of play rather than being advertized as COD in space. Gonna have to be careful not to fall for that one again.


The game IS a sandbox. The key to a sandbox isn't just "You can do whatever you want" it's "Anyone can do whatever they want, which includes hindering you."

And don't pretend the game wasn't advertised as a highly competitive game. From promoting the awoxing thieving death of an alliance, to attacking and killing helpless miners as a potential gameplay style (twice!), there's PLENTY of material out there covering the fact that EVE is not a game where you can simply play separate from all players who might affect your gameplay. And that's only looking at trailers where you have skullduggery or miner-blasting featured, the rest of the trailers pretty much focus on players butting heads in straight up combat.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#535 - 2014-05-21 21:57:08 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:


What absolute tosh there is room for everything within Eve, asking for more PVE content does nothing to hurt PVP



Once again, this is only true in a world with unlimited developmental resources.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#536 - 2014-05-21 21:58:51 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:

Lets have some more features roll out for those who enjoy a more peaceful co-existence with others (while still
retaining the freedom to cause chaos on whatever scale they wish)


Those two things are mutually incompatible.


+1

Why do people who want peaceful co-existence play a game where most of it's content (ships) can mount copious amounts of firearms? It's like joining the *insert initials of a white robe and pointy hat wearing hate group whose name is censored on these forums* because you love 'ethnic folk and immigrants' and want to be their friends.
Probably because the game was advertised as a sandbox, in which a largely peaceful existence is a valid for of play rather than being advertized as COD in space. Gonna have to be careful not to fall for that one again.


The game IS a sandbox. The key to a sandbox isn't just "You can do whatever you want" it's "Anyone can do whatever they want, which includes hindering you."

And don't pretend the game wasn't advertised as a highly competitive game. From promoting the awoxing thieving death of an alliance, to attacking and killing helpless miners as a potential gameplay style (twice!), there's PLENTY of material out there covering the fact that EVE is not a game where you can simply play separate from all players who might affect your gameplay.



No but in the early days, you could mine and do peaceful stuff sometimes, was quite therapeutic kicking back shooting **** on TS or Vent while mining for your Merlin or Moa and still take a trip into 0.0 and get your **** blown up by someone, but while a dark game it was friendlier then somehow not many as*hats as now.... and you could trust ppl more than you can now.

Tal
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#537 - 2014-05-21 22:00:59 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:


What absolute tosh there is room for everything within Eve, asking for more PVE content does nothing to hurt PVP



Once again, this is only true in a world with unlimited developmental resources.


Not really, no one is asking for the whole game to be redeveloped, just a little content, if you want waste, World of Darkness, WIS etc, now how much content could have come from that cash for ALL players...

Tal


Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#538 - 2014-05-21 22:01:21 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
and you could trust ppl more than you can now.

Tal






No, marks like you were getting ripped off even then.

Nostalgia is a helluva drug.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2014-05-21 22:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Galen Darksmith wrote:
The game IS a sandbox. The key to a sandbox isn't just "You can do whatever you want" it's "Anyone can do whatever they want, which includes hindering you."

And don't pretend the game wasn't advertised as a highly competitive game. From promoting the awoxing thieving death of an alliance, to attacking and killing helpless miners as a potential gameplay style (twice!), there's PLENTY of material out there covering the fact that EVE is not a game where you can simply play separate from all players who might affect your gameplay. And that's only looking at trailers where you have skullduggery or miner-blasting featured, the rest of the trailers pretty much focus on players butting heads in straight up combat.

Yeah, I joined before most (actually all) of those adverts existed so...

But looking at the conversation might help your understanding here. Rather than rail on about something to do with not thinking people should be allowed to interfere with me you would realize my issue is that some people seem to think anyone who joins eve for any reason other than to actively fight others is doing it wrong. That sandbox doesn't mean you should have options to chose and work towards because all paths should lead to some sort of death match.

And maybe their right. Maybe this never was a sandbox even by the definition you provided.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#540 - 2014-05-21 22:08:20 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
and you could trust ppl more than you can now.

Tal






No, marks like you were getting ripped off even then.

Nostalgia is a helluva drug.

I never said totally : ), but 2003 , 2004 where generally good years, the taint started with one on ones starting to be not be honoured, but **** like that story was great to be honest, that's the kind of story you would tell your mates about to bring them into the game. Now compare great stuff like that to miner bumping , no comparison.

Tal