EVE General Discussion

I would guess the same question 'Why EvE isn't more popular?' can equally be asked of chess, contrasted with candy-crush-saga or farmville. Same answer I imagine, some people enjoy using their brains competitively, while most do not.

What's truly evil though (and my personal soapbox), are the nerf-bears always calling for chess to be turned into some farmville-hybrid abomination....so just in case this is a stealth nerf EvE thread, I say let chess stay as chess.

F

The thing you're missing is that, were there any real truth to your position, the game couldn't have possibly spent the last decade consistently growing. Since it has, you have to reconsider your assumptions.

First of all, abandon the misconception that they're actually interested in keeping every new player. They're not. They've said as much.

The NPE presentation actually made it quite clear how and why revamping the tutorial experience could help with new player retention. A lot of people have been focused on the wrong stat - the "50% quit almost immediately" stat, which was the absolute least important of the three, and not the focus of the NPE changes. The focus of the NPE changes is converting more of the 40% of the "Solo/mission runner" players into "Group/Diverse" players.



Ah. This is another one of those, "My pet peeve is the objective answer," type things. Got it.

Question: Why is it that what you attribute as the "cause" of the "problem" received virtually no attention during the presentation in question? Is it because CCP employees are all idiots? Or are they sociopaths who just love torturing their customers? Are they lost without you? I mean, you've nailed down THE answer, but it has somehow eluded people who have nigh limitless server-side and account management data available to them. That's pretty impressive. Why haven't they hired you yet? Don't you ever wonder that?

The answer is, "Because the problem and solution are a lot more nuanced than the one little thing that gets your goat."



No, that's not the "cost" of Eve Online: Maldam edition. Despite failing to keep the vast majority of new players for more than a few months, Eve has managed to grow pretty consistently. This tells us that the players it does keep tend to stay for a really long time - otherwise they would hemorrhage players at a phenomenal rate. The reason those players stay for a really long time is that Eve has managed to successfully tap into a niche market of players who enjoy few rules, and a lot of freedom... and there are no serious competitors in that market.

You naively picture the cost of such a change being the occasional sad bittervet, but it's much, much higher than that.

Right now they have a playerbase made of committed, long-term supporters who they're not really competing for because they're the only game in town providing this particular type of experience. These are their proverbial birds-in-the-hand.

Eve per Maldam adds rules, and reduces freedom. This has a few effects.

1. It alienates the core playerbase by reducing the thing they like about the game.
2. It increases the similarity between Eve and other MMOs.

So, suddenly your former core playerbase is now getting less of what they want from the game, and you've just nudged the game away from a niche market where it had no competition toward a more mainstream market, thereby increasing competition between Eve and every other game ever, and for the sake of what, exactly?

I'm going to digress here briefly to say something that CCP simply couldn't say outloud during their presentation, but that is known to anyone with even an ounce of business acumen:

Not all customers are equal. Their subscription fees might be, but they absolutely do not bring the same value to the game. The guy who never interacts with anyone while sitting in an NPC corp running missions day in and day out? Yeah, that guy's contribution begins and ends with his subscription payment. He's not creating content, he's not making the game more interesting for other players. He's virtually indistinguishable from an NPC. He may pay the same sub as, say, a Feyd Rautha Harkonnen or a Cannibal Kane or a James 315, but he doesn't have the same value.

If you read between the lines, the non-politically-correct version of those new player groups are as follows:
10%: High quality customers
40%: Low quality customers
50%: Very low quality or non-customers

The strategy they're pursuing via the NPE is to attempt to convert more low-quality customers into high-quality customers.

The strategy you're proposing is to alienate the high-quality customers (who, unalienated, tend to stay around for a REALLY long time) in favor of keeping low-quality customers around for a little bit longer.

Why is it considered "dumbing down the game" when people speak about making this
amazing game more accessible to newer players?

I think it is not only a good thing, but necessary, to reach out, to craft an experience that
make it worth coming back to this game over and over for newer players. Currently, I
can see the frustrations that newer players have with some of the PvE content. Not
very dynamic, kind of clumsy. An argument I see consistently against the expansion
to PvE consist of claiming that dedicating materials and time to PvE would detract from
the PvP focus that much of this game boasts. I feel that a stronger PvE experience would
aid those who wish to just take a break from PvP, and would encourage people to
stick around longer. Some also claim that PvE and those that enjoy it, are mindless, idiotic,
sheep, etc. . I strongly disagree here. In many games with large group PvE content, it
often takes a keen eye, a good ear, and sharp mind to be able to pick up all the cues
necessary to down a difficult boss/encounter/situation. Some games have made such
things very easy to appeal to the mass of gamers who wish to escape life for a bit. Some
even offer 'elite' difficulties for those who want to be pushed to the edge of their limit on
content and progression. Keep balancing for PvP, and offer a fair and entertaining
alternative to the various forms of PvP, which are also entertaining in moderation for some, PvE
content can be intelligent, given time and resources.

So -- give us more epic story arcs with more dynamic choices, craft more missions/allow players
to submit missions through a review process, provide more instances like Incursions throughout,
and more. I am not asking for them to hold my hand or anyone else's. I just want to be able
to look in EVE for an experience that is quite enjoyable apart from PvP and Industry. Thanks!

Where is the correllation or causation for this idea that with better PvE options, smoother UI, and a more new-player friendlier tutorial, EVE will die a horrible, horrible death? I believe that this game can retain its core identity and still branch out into waters that even non-pvp-centric folks would enjoy.

No one that I know is protesting improving the tutorial. Everyone's behind that one.

Developing the UI is a constant process, see also: the latest tooltips. Again, not many people against the idea there.

"Better PvE options", however, is generally carebear-speak for "Make more non-player generated content. Also while you're at it, make it more difficult for other players to interfere with my play style." EVE is built on player interactions. PvE is and always will be utter **** because it is boring and predictable. About the best thing that can be done with PvE is to make it more like PvP, which CCP is actively pursuing.

Also, missions crafted at the hands of people that play the game, after being reviewed of course,
would definitely be 'player-driven' content, AND take off some of the burden from the Devs from
having to do it all themselves. A win-win, if implemented correctly. Countless, fresh missions, and
mattering on the quality of writing of those who do submit, an interesting dive into emergent lore. :)

Again; let me define my position for you. Make a new player experience that is REWARDING, and eases them into the UI before being thrown to the sharks, which may or may not be me at some point. We can keep and maintain the game's atmosphere as it is and STILL provide quality new player experiences.

Without change, comes stagnation, and boy, is the PvE experience a cess-pool.

Better PvE =/= Worse PvP experience.
The two can go hand in hand, and if PvE included many things that encourage more
group cooperation, it would not have to be some 'solo bore fest'.

What is rewarding varies from player to player.
In the case of a new player, craft an experience that
grasps on this idea of emergent gameplay a bit more
vividly, perhaps thrusting them into either something
scripted that catches the scale of the game, perhaps
ushering them into a group PvE experience that
wows them into wanting to stay, or a rich story tied
with that academy/empire/et cetera. Also, beginner
'PvP' missions and goals could get them to dip their
toes into actual PvP. Something more than what we have now.

As far as rewarding for everyone else, I say let the sandbox
be open in how you have fun. However; they need to
toss us some more toys every now and again.

PvE is only equal to boring/predictable when effort to
capitalize on what makes EVE great is not made.
We need more time and effort.

That's a big assumption that it'll bring more people.

Maybe is the made PvE gameplay in EVE look like their promo videos there would be a chance, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I know the thread was sort of directed at PvE. But here are a few reasons I think Eve is not more popular.

1) Training is time based, so you will never truly be able to catch up with others. I know you can a useful and viable character in a fairly short period of time, but many people out there do not want to "feel" they are years behind others. Don't get me wrong, I like the time based training, but I think it is a hurdle to getting new players.

2) Some people need an avatar and not a ship. I know technically we are not our ship, but I have talked to many people who feel this is not the case.

3) Some people feel lost and disoriented in space.

4) PvP. Many people will not play a game where there is open PvP. They want to feel safe and experience no loss

5) Learning curve might play a slight part. I think this is often over stated. Eve is different enough from most other MMO's so many people might experience a larger than normal learning curve. Don't get me wrong, Eve truly is much deeper most (if not all) MMO's out there, but to get going and playing is not that bad.

These are the top reasons I can think of that people have given me for not playing Eve. I am a member of a large multi-game guild.