EVE General Discussion

First of all, many thanks for what's been an interesting and generally good natured discussion. I'll start by clarifying a couple of points from my original post.

One. I never stated that PvE being shite is the _only_ reason that Eve isn't more popular, there are obviously multiple factors at play here, but given the expections people have of an MMO I do think it's one of the more important ones.

Two. Tippia pointed out that the Sleeper AI is actually used by belt and mission rats. I was unclear in the OP. I didn't mean that I wanted belt and mission rats to utilize the same code infrastructure (I don't care how it's coded), what I meant was that I wanted belt and mission rats to exhibit the similarly challenging combat behaviour as Sleeper and Incursion rats, irrespective of how that is actually coded.

To the one or two trolls that automatically replied that if Eve's too hard for me I should go play WOW I'd just like to remind them (as if they even read the OP anyway), that what I proposed was that PvE would be made much more engaging if it was made _much_ _harder_.

To those who remarked that PvE is shite in all MMO's I have to admit that's almost certainly true, but that it's still no excuse for it being shite in Eve, and if it remains as shite here as it currently is then sooner or later some other game is going to come along and eat CCP's lunch. And I expect we all already know of some of those games that are in the pipeline that might do just that.

One oft repeated claim is that Eve is niche so it doesn't make the slightest difference how popular Eve is. I beg to differ. Being increasingly niche is the precurcusor to being extinct. The more popular Eve is the more money CCP makes, the more they can invest in the game and the better it becomes. That's a virtuous circle. The flip side is a game that becomes increasingly niche before it folds. Now I'm not suggesting Eve is going to fold any time soon, but it seems fairly obvious that the more money CCP makes the better it is for all of us.

A lot of people have highlighted how other MMO's provide that artifical sense of achievement (you grind 5 wolves, get a halo and level up), Eve does not have this (thank God). And that in Eve loss is permanent. I don't think either of these things discourage players at all. I think people signing up to play Eve know full well what Eve is all about. Eve provides a far deeper sense of achievement whether it's from looting a lucrative relic site deep in hostile territory and getting out alive, completing a 7/10 DED deadspace site in a cruiser or ganking the gatecamp on the doorstep to your nullsec empire with half their numbers. These are the highlights, The lowlights are some of the absolutely terrible mechanics that are in your face the whole time that you are doing these things.

Others have sugested that the skilling up process leaves people feeling useless for a long period after starting. I've just started skilling up an alt for some cheap PVP and with some cheap attribute implants and a focused skillplan it really doesn't take more than a couple of months to acquire T2 frigate and T1 cruiser skills. I think people starting Eve now will have heard all the horror stories of long skill training so I'd be somewhat surprised if that was a major disincentive for those that take the plunge.

Another point that's repeatedly made is that Eve is all about PvP and that PvE is somehow secondary if not entirely irrelevant. This opinion strikes me as at the very least a generalization, more likely a complete fallacy, and quite probably also a pointless dig at the playstyle of others.

Here are a couple of assertions that I'd be interested to see whether anyone disagrees with.
1. More people log in to exclusively PvE than log in to exclusively PvP.
2. There are far more NPC kills than player kills.

It may be that there are some here who are such awesome PvPers that they make enough isk from ransoming noob's capsules in lowsec and looting the wrecks of their defeated enemies to keep themselves supplied with shiney T2 combat ships. To them I'd ask "where do you think the guy you just ransomed got his isk from to pay you or buy his ship in the first place?", and where do you think all the materials needed to build your PvP ships came from too?

Uber PvPers aside I think it's fairly incontravertable that the majority of us get our resources from PvE, one way or another, and the bottom line is that if PvE were removed from the game entirely then after enough ships had been turned to space dust we'd all ultimately end up fighting in noobships.

PvP and PvE exist almost in a state of symbiosis. PvP requires PvE to make the things that get blown up. New players join Eve with dreams of marvelous and exciting PvP, but most start off using PvE as a means to learn about the game while skilling up and equipping. Sooner or later some migrate to PvP, some never do, but the numbers of new players who start off by jumping straight into PvP and never PvE at all is probably a fairly tiny percentage.

So with all that said it still seems pretty self evident to me that improving the core PvE mechanics would go quite a long way to improving the new player experience and player retention.

It's difficult to teach a new player the prime rules: don't fly what you can't afford to lose, is normally the first one everyone preaches. However, In a game that expects you to join forces in a Corp ( or guild or whatever the game of choice is)
DTA ( Don't trust anyone) just doesn't make for a good game mechanic and in this game unfortunately that is the PRIME RULE.

+1 for this alone lol

actually the hand to hand is fun, kicks are way over powered, one kick kills whereas some weapons take several shots....
other weapons just lack, sniper rifle takes multi-shots sometimes and auto pistol is total garbage weapon it pretty much gives some fool with no skill a robokill weapon. mechs are weak for what they are, pretty much better off putting them on auto and let them fight on their own.

Again, cant say Ive used it, cant say I will

EVEMON and EFT are both far from essential

Sorry, are you being sarcastic? Im probably being teh dumb but I cant tell, sorry

Why?

ToolTips!

Because a Procurer is about as far from paper tanked as any T1 ship short of a BC or BS can be and its the easiest barge to fly

I say paper tanked mining ships and you bring up the cheapest most heavily tanked ship? Everyone who wants to mine should all be flying procurers with tank mods and stop any form of progression in the mining field, yeah that's really going to get people to stay. **** pay and the feeling of working towards nothing.

Not to mention you completely glazed over the fact that a gank cata still has no reason to use a single tank mod. Why are gankers allowed to use the most efficent ship to maximize effectivness when everyone else is expected to gimp their effectiveness?

The cheapest most heavily tanked mining ship is the easiest to fly, so doesnt that suggest that newer players and solo artists should be using it? We arent talking about everyone who wants to mine. We ARE talking about new players.

Please tell me more about how flying a Retriever is so much more sensible and "progresses" the field of mining. This is a term I haven't heard used in regards to the different ways to be the slowest isk/hour profession.



Plenty of people do their first few missions in them, so theres a reason to tank them. Plenty of people use them to salvage, and that too can benefit from a tank every now and again.

Your sentence regarding min/max effectiveness shows a poor understanding of the ships, their roles and how they are used.