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Why Eve isn't more popular?

First post
Author
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#181 - 2014-05-13 11:28:17 UTC
In regards to a sandbox game:

PVE without PVP is boring, and causes stagnation.

PVP without PVE is meaningless, and near impossible.

A balance is needed, of both "fun" and engaging PVE and PVP.

Eve fails miserable in regards to the former, while excessive on the latter(not a bad thing).

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#182 - 2014-05-13 11:31:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why do PvP and PvE have to be different things?

Inertia.

Just think about how much work it would be to change every mission in the game to be a proper PvP-like experience and how many tops would be blown by people who'd no longer be able to just warp in with their battleship, F1 everything in sight, and casually collect cash…


That doesn't mean they cannot design new missions from new agents that function like the desired pvp/pve blend.

It's one thing to have an opinion and another thing entirely to shiptoast.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#183 - 2014-05-13 11:33:09 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why do PvP and PvE have to be different things?

Inertia.

Just think about how much work it would be to change every mission in the game to be a proper PvP-like experience and how many tops would be blown by people who'd no longer be able to just warp in with their battleship, F1 everything in sight, and casually collect cash…


That doesn't mean they cannot design new missions from new agents that function like the desired pvp/pve blend.

It's one thing to have an opinion and another thing entirely to shiptoast.


No AI can match players.
Tare Bloodraven
My Test Corp
#184 - 2014-05-13 11:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tare Bloodraven
Quote:
some of the guys at CCP have been struggling to understand why Eve isn't more popular. Among all the reader comments on that article one jumped out at me immediately. PvE in Eve is shite.



That is EXACTLY why this game isn't more popular! HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN this "LITTER BOX" to someone?


Not everyone wants to have everything they work for ripped off, stolen, scammed or blown up. To top it off almost EVERY change to the game is made by CCP to DRIVE players out of High Sec.

Taking Asteroid belts out of systems like Juunigaish and Suroken years ago ????
Now Removing the ICE BELTS and making them 20 rocks twice a day.
Took away "Loot" and replaced it with CRAP "scrap metal"
Took away "Drone ores" now drones drop nothing
Took away the static complexes and gave us pop-ups that disappear
The list goes on and on of the little fun things players did that no longer exist for no REAL reason.

Upcoming now manufactures need to transport BPC's and ores to different stations to get the best price to build? oh great....every gankers dream come true .....

and everyone that didn't EARN the right to put a POS in HIGH SEC because they didn't have the Standing can do so (WTF) **** on those that did all that effort.

I really don't give a flying fornication over the changes to appearances of the ships but it really does suck when a 200 mill Hulk (That I was required to train to exhumers 5 to fly by the way) gets ganked in High Sec by a NOOB in 10 Mill isk Destroyer suicide gank (and gets paid full insurance for it) what "Balance" is that?

NOW all I read is stuff in DEV BLOGS "Devs whine "I can't do anything for the benefit of the players in NULL sec because the HIGH SEC stations give 100% refine," I can't give bonuses to them for this or that in their Player Outposts and Starbases so we all get our game screwed so the NULL SEC folks can get "BENEFITS for living there" They get the best ores ( now being improved) they get the best RATS in the game...they chose to live there, and it's ALL THIEIRS!!!!!

I worked my ass off mission to earn faction in multitudes of NPC corps to get perfect refine and train skills to level 5, what justifies them getting "BONUSES" in NULL over High or Low?

Now we have to deal with serious changes to all our ways of doing business in the game.....some look like improvements, others are smoke and mirrors to cover my last statement of benefiting NULL sec outposts

People like to play where they are comfortable not where you dictate to them they should be. It's PURE SHITE that folks that pay the fees are being "Pushed" anywhere.

Some people I am sure some LOVE NULL, I personally have no interest there and the more CCP pushes the more I will resist and NOT RECOMMEND THIS GAME TO ANYONE.

I played in Low Sec for years, online from downtime to downtime most days and have tolerated the constant pecking away of what I love to do in this game, and when it got to much I quit for while, and then return. BUT you can't keep beating people like dogs, I pay for more than just my account and to be honest :

it's wonder to me anyone stays as long as they do, let alone recommend it to new players.....I have taken to demoing it...doesn't work.

Save your flames my GAD is broken...fly safe all.
jx3p3 Intas
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#185 - 2014-05-13 11:35:44 UTC
PvE in EVE is just as repetetive as any other MMO's PvE really.

I think the key factor in why EVE isn't more popular is that you cannot progress through this game at your own pace. Many MMO players love to rush to end-game, max level, gear up etc. You just can't do that in EVE because of the real time skill system. Of course there is also that fact that for a new player EVE appears to be extremely complicated and difficult to play. I tried and quit EVE several times before i finally got into the game enough to truly appreciate how great an MMO it is. Unfortunately alot of MMO players just don't have the patience and give up.

I love EVE and while it may not have super high subscriber count like WoW it's still a very succesful and very much thriving MMO, and considering it's 11 years old that just goes to show that EVE really is a fantastic MMO with a loyal playerbase and will live on for many years to come. I have alot of respect for everything CCP has done in recent years to make this game as newbie friendly as possible but ultimately EVE is kind of like Marmite - you either love it or hate it. The sad fact is - alot of new players just give up before they can even decide if they love it or hate it.

That's just my opinion anyway.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#186 - 2014-05-13 11:41:38 UTC
Tare Bloodraven wrote:


Not everyone wants to have everything they work for ripped off, stolen, scammed or blown up. To top it off almost EVERY change to the game is made by CCP to DRIVE players out of High Sec.

The tools are there to do something
Are you saying there is no sense of acheivement from frustrating a gank?

Tare Bloodraven wrote:

1 Taking Asteroid belts out of systems like Juunigaish and Suroken years ago ????
2 Now Removing the ICE BELTS and making them 20 rocks twice a day.
3 Took away "Loot" and replaced it with CRAP "scrap metal"
4 Took away "Drone ores" now drones drop nothing
5 Took away the static complexes and gave us pop-ups that disappear
The list goes on and on of the little fun things players did that no longer exist for no REAL reason.


1 Yeah cos no other systems have ore in them
2 Ice Mining sure is a "fun little thing" Roll. Wow you actually have to work to get your isk fountain now. Like the rest of us.
3 What loot was removed and replaced with this free tritanium?
4 Apart from higher-grade salvage and drone officer modules, yeah I agree...
5 Disappear and respawn much more quickly than previously. Is it a problem that you cant camp a system waiting for the same rats to respawn at your static? Is using your exploration skills that difficult for you?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2014-05-13 11:44:51 UTC
The thing is, it's all very well to pat ourselves on the back and go all self-congratulatorily Darwinian on the problem, but that doesn't help CCP very much.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#188 - 2014-05-13 11:54:16 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Jered Hakaaros wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why do PvP and PvE have to be different things? I don't drive to work in the morning and say oh I'd better not get into a crash because this isn't my PvP car. It's stupid.


you're thinking about it wrong.

"PvE Fit" car is comfortable, airbags, cupholders, radio, a/c, power everything, automatic transmission ... etc.

"PvP Fit" car is not so comfortable (stripped down interior, racing seat/harness), no radio, a/c, power anything, standard transmission ... and is then tweaked to get the most performance possible out of the parts.


That is actually a surprisingly fitting analogy.
I don't see how that makes sense.

It's more the other way round, but with combat fittings still being the one who perform much better.


Non-combat fittings are automatic cars for people who are unable to apply thought to what they are doing,
with crappy performance. How you can see luxury items in such crap is beyond me.




I don't follow ... the "PvE Car" is suited to generic boring rat-race conditions ... the "PvP Car" is suited to racing conditions ... and in a matchup, will spank the "PvE Car" ...

... or have I gone full ****** and I swapped "PvE" and "PvP" in my OP?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#189 - 2014-05-13 11:54:16 UTC
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
The thing is, it's all very well to pat ourselves on the back and go all self-congratulatorily Darwinian on the problem, but that doesn't help CCP very much.


And that depends entirely on whether you think it's actually a problem.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#190 - 2014-05-13 11:59:23 UTC
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
help CCP


Uh huh

*writes that down*

Interesting concept.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2014-05-13 12:08:08 UTC
Tried to follow that car analogy.. I think you guys are in over your heads.

Anyway, so a Gankalyst is kind of like a motorcycle? It passes cars and cuts into lanes and people in cars just shake their fists "ooh!! that's against the rules".. but dear car driver, it is NOT against the rules. And then if you get hit in one you're dead.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Tare Bloodraven
My Test Corp
#192 - 2014-05-13 12:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tare Bloodraven
Ramona McCandless wrote:
1 Yeah cos no other systems have ore in them


The point is CCP took the asteroids from these and other systems to "MANGE US" and get us to leave them.


Tare Bloodraven wrote:
Took away "Loot" and replaced it with CRAP "scrap metal".

Ramona McCandless wrote:
3 What loot was removed and replaced with this free tritanium?


CCP took modules from almost every rat wreck because someone complained about "GUN MINING" (folks refined the modules for minerals). therefore you didn't have to go low sec or NULL to get you high end minerals

Tare Bloodraven wrote:
Took away the static complexes and gave us pop-ups that disappear

Ramona McCandless wrote:
5 Disappear and respawn much more quickly than previously. Is it a problem that you cant camp a system waiting for the same rats to respawn at your static? Is using your exploration skills that difficult for you?


There are no static complexes is the problem, again because CCP took them out of the game to manage where they spawn and therefore where we play and live.

They also implemented partial asteroid respawns at down times....we originally got entire capacity belts replenished at downtime now you get "Base belts" and they get bigger over time (Grow) if they aren't mined each day...like that will happen in high sec. this minipulated the amount available to be mined in systems. Forcing miners to move.
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#193 - 2014-05-13 12:15:29 UTC
Another thought, so another approach...

People mention how steep the learning curve for Eve is today. Right... - compared to how the learning curve was back when I started nearly eight years ago, CCP has bulldozed that curve into rolling meadows. Anyone playing back then most likely saw the "graph" of Eve's learning curve with its hanging and speared stick figures compared to other popular games of its time. Starting a new pilot back then consisted of Aura showing you the basics of shooting a gun, firing a mining laser, simple advice not to shoot Empire stations, and then a kick in the ass and told to make your own adventure.

What is available today - implants, ISK, ships, and skill books...? Guides both in the game and out of the game on how to do every aspect to Eve? Warning labels everywhere and a safety switch on your interface? For the novice me, right click on my civilian gun and realize there are better weapons. Tinker with the market interface - "Hey, this one seems inexpensive.", purchase the gun, and note it is eight some odd jumps away. "Alright, how to get there?" by opening the universe map and manually plotting my way there - no way points in those early days (that I remember). Fly my way there by constantly referring back to the universal map. Eventually find the station, get my new gun, and exit into two people blasting each other apart.

Turns out I was in low security space.

After the two pilots destroyed each other, the "winner" looked me over and struck up a conversation. He asked how I was enjoying the game since I was but mere days old and not seen as cannon fodder or a possible spy. He explained the different security regions of space, and offered advice on various questions I had. Other people joined in and were quite helpful - never once looking at me as padding a kill mail board. Afterwards, all of them let me pass and leave based on the angle of "live and learn" instead of "perish and suffer".

But what is there today? "Are you really sure you want to enter this low security area of space?" before getting your ass handed to you by some gate camper ~bored~ of head shooting newbies in the current first person shooter genre. Who's fault is it that you did not pay attention to the in game coloring scheme, much less use a hard copy or a net map to guide you along?

And CCP has a segment of blame today too. When I started, they had this background aura involving published articles and story lines that gave this "Blade Runner" atmosphere to the gaming world. The original opening movie where most of the populace nearly died when the gate closed and empires fell apart. Pod pilots were a rare sight and the hope of a future with the risk of dying during the process or living eternal life through corpse jumping. Amarrians enslaving Minmatars through heavy drug use while Caldarians and Gallentians clashed over business visions and other past slights. The seedier side of life with missions of obtaining drugs and finding prostitutes all in high security space. Every avatar having a distinct look based on your race.

But what is there today? Perhaps I have missed them, but does CCP still release stories? Every avatar can (nearly) mix and match aspects of other empires. No word about drugs, prostitutes, or slavery... and that gaming label whenever you start the client. Back in the day, you had to download the client (unless you had the earliest box). The game was geared towards adults and the developers enjoyed drinking more than just at a fan fest. But today, everything is clean and sterile - a mirror image of kumbaya that today's real life societies want to portray.

And player driven content - yes, I will admit I am slacking too. But back in the day, hearing how this ~evil~ Band of Brothers declared war on the universe spurred some excitement. Today I hear about the "Blue Donut" and short of some battle making the news, it sounds quiet out in null security space. And back in the day, it seemed players as a whole realized in the end it was but a video game. Today it seems everyone is uptight and too damn serious over every little thing.

Perhaps I am too jaded and see the past through rose colored glasses.

Anyway, thanks for reading.
Steelrattty
Broski North
#194 - 2014-05-13 12:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Steelrattty
EVE isn't more popular because they don't give a crap about the community that made the game what it is, the only recent changes include:

Arrow"Balance" where one ship is made overpowered and the ship that was overpowered before is rendered useless.

This is the cycle of EVE online that any veteran is extremely familiar with, touting balance changes but simply shifting the imbalance from one ship/race to another. I feel they've accepted the fact they cant homogenize all ships which is the right move, if everything was homogenized the game would be absolute garbage, but they get around this by just shifting the paradigm every expansion which in my opinion is a cop out.

Arrow"UI Improvements" where they change things (usually for the worse), implementing changes no one asked for or even wanted after it happened.

Moving/Changing button positions for seemingly no reason, for example the undock button. Would leaving it at the bottom left as well as putting in a new one have hurt anyone? Not everyone wants to have this massive station services box open all the time just in case they want to undock.

Arrow"Time Dialation" instead of putting the man hours into fixing the game that made them ALL of their money, they just apply band aid over band aid, while piling all their cash into ****** games that are DOA. Having said this I seriously hope they don't even try to fix EvE because they're incompetent and they'll just ruin the game.

CCP blame drones for a lot of the lag, I am no expert and I don't pretend to know anything about coding/programming, but would it be so hard to make drones a unified command to the server instead of 5 different damage rolls, this not only clutters the notifications in the middle of the screen, but surely less messages to the server would make it run more efficiently?

Arrow"Denial" CCP refuse to backtrack any change they make even if its clearly a mistake, it's like they're afraid to hurt their employee's feelings by not implementing a change they propose.

For example, the Capital Jumping effect, when it went from a badass lightning stream to a drop of water in a pond, back to badass lightning, this whole process however took over a year (maybe longer? i don't even remember).

Arrow"Casualization" I think we can agree that PVP is the driving force of the game, if you think otherwise you're delusional, without the PVP community the game would be dead and the people that do nothing but industry would be playing Farming Simulator 2013 instead. CCP continue to make changes to the game that make PVP 99.9% optional.

I can fly around 0.0 or low-sec with impunity if I want to, that shouldn't be the case.

The first step towards total casualization and immersion breaking was standings in local, this makes it extremely easy to bot and rat/run anoms in general. Anoms themselves added another layer of protection for making isk via NPCing by forcing you to check not only the belts but 20 anomalies ontop of that, not to mention the disgustingly unintuitive, ugly solar system map you have to use inaccurately to find people in these anoms.

This essentially killed the solo roamer who wants to ruin peoples day by killing their money making machine.

Jump Bridges are the biggest contribution toward making pvp almost 100% consensual, while I agree people should not be able to camp a gate and have no one ever be able to run the gauntlet, Jump Bridges make it way too easy to get around. Not to mention how easy it makes it to hold extremely large amounts of space, see: goons/pl/ncdot, I would like to see these entities hold 10 regions each without Jump Bridges.

That's why its not more popular in my opinion, but there's also really great aspects to the game. The patch applied today has some improvements in it, such as when you hover over a cluster of celestials , that scroll-bar and menu is hot as hell, but they applied this new hover menu to every single function on the UI, why? the in-space popup only serves to get in the way, same with the overview one, the menu for the celestials... GREAT, hovering over a ships bracket/tab on overview ... Annoying eye-sore.

End rant, I went back and added in more as i was going so this will probably seem like a wall of incoherent crap, I feel i got my point across.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VgvM7av1o1Q
What happened to this CCP?

Edit: maybe I was a little harsh on the newest UI change, its pretty nice for the most part, maybe just the overview bit is annoying
BrundleMeth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2014-05-13 12:21:42 UTC
People quit because they are lazy, entitled and looking for quick or instant gratification. I see people whining loudly when they have to train a skill for 7 days. 7 days is nothing...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#196 - 2014-05-13 12:28:41 UTC
Tare Bloodraven wrote:


There are no static complexes is the problem, again because CCP took them out of the game to manage where they spawn and therefore where we play and live.

They also implemented partial asteroid respawns at down times....we originally got entire capacity belts replenished at downtime now you get "Base belts" and they get bigger over time (Grow) if they aren't mined each day...like that will happen in high sec. this minipulated the amount available to be mined in systems. Forcing miners to move.


Erstet / Egruk / Metropolis has a static 2/10 site in it ... or am I misunderstanding "complex" this morning...

The daily asteroid respawns are ****, and have been **** ever since they were introduced. CCP should have kept them to Monday and Friday and told miners to HTFU and dec the bastards mining out the systems.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Velicitia
XS Tech
#197 - 2014-05-13 12:39:09 UTC
Steelrattty

[:arrow: wrote:
"Time Dialation" instead of putting the man hours into fixing the game that made them ALL of their money, they just apply band aid over band aid, while piling all their cash into ****** games that are DOA. Having said this I seriously hope they don't even try to fix EvE because they're incompetent and they'll just ruin the game.

CCP blame drones for a lot of the lag, I am no expert and I don't pretend to know anything about coding/programming, but would it be so hard to make drones a unified command to the server instead of 5 different damage rolls, this not only clutters the notifications in the middle of the screen, but surely less messages to the server would make it run more efficiently?



You know ... no other game in existence (afaik) has realms that support 4,000 people across the whole damn server ... CCP / Tranquility does that IN A SINGLE SYSTEM semi-regularly these days (asakai, b-r, others that I'm obviously forgetting).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Tare Bloodraven
My Test Corp
#198 - 2014-05-13 12:42:17 UTC
BrundleMeth wrote:
People quit because they are lazy, entitled and looking for quick or instant gratification. I see people whining loudly when they have to train a skill for 7 days. 7 days is nothing...


Ha ha ha try Carrier 5

The ones I get irritated over are paying for many accounts to get to high level 5s only to have them rendered unnecessary.

Exhumer 5 was 23 days to get in to a HULK --- >not needed all you need is level 1
Gallente Industrial 5 for the Iteron 5 --- > not needed all you need is level 1

we PAID 15$ for training times more than the "playing" so we could play in the ships and gear we needed to do what we wanted to do.

Wait till you want to do more than be a EVE BARBI and just sit in the ships and smell the leather....like fit and fight them

You can sit in a carrier but it takes months more for mods and fighters and triage for example.

I Love the fact this game has very few "TWINKS". (for those that need a definition, that's noobs getting uber gear and weaps like other games). oh wait forgot about the GNOSIS why there isn't a BC skill required and any NOOB can fly a BC in game I don't know.

There are still overpower issues that CCP has created such as with TECH 1 destroyers and Hulks
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2014-05-13 12:43:27 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
help CCP


Uh huh

*writes that down*

Interesting concept.


Hey, if it helps you to write down the premise of the thread you're participating in, be my guest.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#200 - 2014-05-13 12:44:08 UTC
Tare Bloodraven wrote:

There are still overpower issues that CCP has created such as with TECH 1 destroyers and Hulks


Your entire post is you bitching about how skill requirements hold you back... And then you complain about one of the few kinds of ships that new players can actually use to be effective?

You carebears don't even try to make sense, do you?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.