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But is it cap stable???
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-05-11 23:56:20 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
because "Cap Stable" is in green and the numbers are in red.

Maybe you have something here. Red means danger!

Well until informed otherwise, my corpies and I all assumed this was the case. It's presentation implies cap stability is a goal.

None of us are beyond multitasking or the concept of management of limited resources, the reason this comes about is simply the visual language on the fitting screen telling you that cap stability is an achievement by changing from red to green.


You have a good point. I think many players don't understand the basic mechanics of the game. I can't tell you how many lossmails I've seen where they had mixed tank and guns.

I think this is the "Advantage" that most new pilots feel older pilots have against them. It's not that they have 80 mil SP like they think but rather know how to play the game.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#22 - 2014-05-12 07:34:04 UTC
IIshira wrote:
I knew a guy who spent about 4 hours doing level 4's in a Raven. When I saw his fit of course not one BCS or missile rig... His answer "Well I wanted to be cap stable"

There are several factors which contribute to the drive towards cap stability but one of the most important is simply that newer characters have fewer skills... Their damage is likely to be very low, their tank thinner than older characters. When a character with 24 million missile skillpoints fits a BCU they might go from two volleys to alpha, or four volleys to three to kill specific rats - a newer player might also gain one volley but it might be one in ten or more. If it's going to take you two hours to finish an L4, where any error is going to leave you capped out, unable to run your hardeners (and probably having to look for both a new ship and your last agent) the draw of greater cap stability can be quite significant.

It is also worth considering how other games' analogues of capacitor work. If your attack chain is too much for your stamina and your toggles turn off...
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-05-12 09:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Sometimes you just can't underestimate lazy. When Tengus were new I remember seeing a few of them that people had fit with dual A-type small shield boosters for missions because it was cap stable and they were drastically reducing the damage they took from an afterburner's speed and signature.

If you are well versed enough in the game to know that speed/signature tanking is a thing I would suspect that you know that cap stability is not required but they do it anyway so they can just turn their tank on and push F1.

Seems really boring to me but then we are talking about something like this: cap stable? Yeah, cuz lazy.

EDIT: I'm lazy but not that lazy, the bastion module fortunately has made my Golem need to pulse it's booster only a few times a mission and adds enough resist that I can get away with invulns instead of swapping in rat specific hardners.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
BigWolfUK
Sons-of-Liberty
#24 - 2014-05-12 09:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: BigWolfUK
Cap stability; bane of my existence when dealing with mission runners What?
Well, that and silly overtanking

One rule I tell them about cap, 5 minutes is enough for any level 4 mission

Simply put, (perhaps, with exception to missions that have Neuts hitting you) if you cap out with a 5 minute stability, you've either done something wrong or your skills aren't quite good enough yet

As for PvP, how often do small fights last that long anyway?
Hell those of us in Spectre Fleet often are flying ships with less capacitor than that and we rarely cap out unless hit by neuts (and usually it's because a pilot hasn't turned their MWD/AB off when they should of)

Yes, we have the whole 'Keep it stable for one less thing to worry about', but to me, it's an extremely important part of the game that it's much better to learn before many other aspects

Though, Valleria Darkmoon does bring up a good point, laziness is a driving force behind it for alot of people
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#25 - 2014-05-12 12:41:06 UTC
Cap Booster is always the way to go (unless you're in something that has enough cap time and tank with no cap modules like the Tengu or the Marauders). Learning to manage a cap booster well it's also an invaluable PvP skill.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-05-12 12:59:11 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
IIshira wrote:
I knew a guy who spent about 4 hours doing level 4's in a Raven. When I saw his fit of course not one BCS or missile rig... His answer "Well I wanted to be cap stable"

There are several factors which contribute to the drive towards cap stability but one of the most important is simply that newer characters have fewer skills... Their damage is likely to be very low, their tank thinner than older characters. When a character with 24 million missile skillpoints fits a BCU they might go from two volleys to alpha, or four volleys to three to kill specific rats - a newer player might also gain one volley but it might be one in ten or more. If it's going to take you two hours to finish an L4, where any error is going to leave you capped out, unable to run your hardeners (and probably having to look for both a new ship and your last agent) the draw of greater cap stability can be quite significant.

It is also worth considering how other games' analogues of capacitor work. If your attack chain is too much for your stamina and your toggles turn off...

I do agree that with lower skills it requires more cap mod harder to become cap stable. When you combine this with low DPS because of low missile skills and they end up wondering why it takes so long to run missions with their with a 250 DPS cap stable Raven.

Here's my favorite fit from a corp mate... This was after I convinced him he should change the heavy launchers for cruise.


[Raven, Mike's]
Internal Force Field Array I
Capacitor Flux Coil I
Capacitor Flux Coil I
Capacitor Flux Coil I
Capacitor Flux Coil I

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
X-Large Clarity Ward Booster I
'Stalwart' Particle Field Magnifier
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin I x4
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#27 - 2014-05-12 13:32:02 UTC
Some of my ships are cap stable because I use 2-3 accounts to do things and I don't have to worry about forgetting to cycle my repper.

Not today spaghetti.
Viserys Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-05-12 16:10:49 UTC
I do think it is presented as a goal. And for starting out, it might not be a bad idea. As you learn the basics of the game, understanding the balance between tanking, DPS, and capacitor becomes important. Its similar to a saying we have in my industry. You can have any two of the three.

You can have Max DPS and Cap Stable, but your tanking won't be max
You can have Max Tanking and cap stable, but your DPS won't be max
You can have max tanking and max DPS, but you won't be cap stable.

I think what it comes down to is comfort. WHen I build a new ship type for myself, I usually start by aiming for cap stability. I try it out for its intended purpose, and make adjustments. I gradually start trading some cap stability for DPS, then some cap for tanking if I find I'm getting chewed through. If I find I barely go below 70% cap because I'm barely using the reppers, I'll trade for some more DPS or trade some tanking for DPS.

Some of my ships are cap stable, most aren't. Just depends on how I'm using them.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-05-12 16:19:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
If you don't run out of cap doing whatever you are doing on a regular basis you are pretty much cap stable.

My comet can run for less than two minutes full blast but i have never EVER capped out in it so it might as well be cap stable.

Cap stability is important, but the eft number is highly overrated.


This is true, but not so apparent to a noob - or anyone that does the majority of PVE content - even if they are not a noob. When I started, the 'people in local' and even in EUNI preached the importance cap stability in my mission runners. Honestly for a noob I think that is not a bad idea. The multi-tasking part is hard to get a hang of at first and pulsing a repper is usually beyond the grokking of most new players. Hell, I am pretty sure I still have my first Dominix mission runner in Dodixie or Oursalat somewhere. Im 99% sure it even at its most refined fit, it had 11+ minutes of cap life, and I thought I was living dangerously.

Anyway - the capacitor on frigates is fracking amazing for the length of their fights, so anything past 2 mins is essentially cap stable.

For anything cruiser size, 2 minutes rough. It can be done in a hit-and-run kiting Stabber that is full DPS fit, but its rough. Almost anything else will die horridly simply because at the cruiser level there is a much greater chance that there will be neuts on the field.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-05-12 16:22:21 UTC
Many people also won't think about the fact your AB, MWD and reppers won't always be running. Those are some of the most cap hungry module on the ship and don't always need to be cycling but new player don't know about that. They make a fit and see the cap will run out when all is on. Just turning off the prop mod will enable you to regen a lot of cap while you are stationary shooting at targets for example.

Cap management + repper management + target selection + light drones control (so they don't go to 40k targets) can be overwhelming to some people so they go "safe" and stabilize what they can.
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-05-12 16:39:50 UTC
I always tell low-skill newbros to Fit Purple because that's the secret all the leet capsuleers don't share. Purple requires very little skill and, combined, maximizes cap, tank and........ gankTwisted

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#32 - 2014-05-12 16:48:50 UTC
I also think mission runners should stop being terrible and put cap boosters on their ships rather than three cap rechargers or something equally silly.

800's are cheap as ****, require minimal microing and let you use your mids for applying more dps.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-05-12 16:59:12 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I also think mission runners should stop being terrible and put cap boosters on their ships rather than three cap rechargers or something equally silly.

800's are cheap as ****, require minimal microing and let you use your mids for applying more dps.


Agreed, but 800 charges do take up ALOT of space.

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-05-12 17:58:05 UTC
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I also think mission runners should stop being terrible and put cap boosters on their ships rather than three cap rechargers or something equally silly.

800's are cheap as ****, require minimal microing and let you use your mids for applying more dps.


Agreed, but 800 charges do take up ALOT of space.


but they r so worth it
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-05-12 18:13:10 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I also think mission runners should stop being terrible and put cap boosters on their ships rather than three cap rechargers or something equally silly.

800's are cheap as ****, require minimal microing and let you use your mids for applying more dps.


Agreed, but 800 charges do take up ALOT of space.


but they r so worth it


Only if you use them correctly which many newbie won't hence why they fit cap rechargers and CPRs. Telling them the AB/MWD can be turned off to save cap sometime is a better way to teach them how cap actually work than throwing them on a cap booster fit where is mistake means hardeners shut down and you don't even have enough to warp out.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#36 - 2014-05-12 18:23:04 UTC
I can remember when cap stability was a goal, mainly when I was running missions. I was terrified of running out of cap and losing my ship.

Then I got into PvP and realized the general futility of it. Twisted

A PvP-fit blaster Thorax (my first and favorite solo PvP ship) that worries about cap stability is an oxymoron: by definition, your goal is to fit it so that either you or your opponent is dead in the amount of time it takes to drain your cap. Worrying about cap stability makes that all but impossible. (Ironically, my preferred solo PvP-Thorax build is cap stable with the MWD off, but not by design. That's another topic though.)

Are there situations where cap stability is useful? Sure. POS-repping (and bashing to an extent), mining, etc. Basically, anything that takes a long time and/or is done semi-AFK. But if you're ATK and actually paying attention to what you're doing? I think it's kind of a waste.

YYMV.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-05-12 18:35:59 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Jacob Holland wrote:
IIshira wrote:
I knew a guy who spent about 4 hours doing level 4's in a Raven. When I saw his fit of course not one BCS or missile rig... His answer "Well I wanted to be cap stable"

There are several factors which contribute to the drive towards cap stability but one of the most important is simply that newer characters have fewer skills... Their damage is likely to be very low, their tank thinner than older characters. When a character with 24 million missile skillpoints fits a BCU they might go from two volleys to alpha, or four volleys to three to kill specific rats - a newer player might also gain one volley but it might be one in ten or more. If it's going to take you two hours to finish an L4, where any error is going to leave you capped out, unable to run your hardeners (and probably having to look for both a new ship and your last agent) the draw of greater cap stability can be quite significant.

It is also worth considering how other games' analogues of capacitor work. If your attack chain is too much for your stamina and your toggles turn off...

I do agree that with lower skills it requires more cap mod harder to become cap stable. When you combine this with low DPS because of low missile skills and they end up wondering why it takes so long to run missions with their with a 250 DPS cap stable Raven.
Maybe I misread Jacob's post, but it seems you missed part of his point. New players with lower skills have game mechanics working against them. They have lower DPS and/or damage application due to skills, which means they will already be taking longer in missions. As a consequence they potentially have more hostile DPS on the field longer, meaning they may need a more resilient tank, taking away from fitting slots for DPS/Application, and possibly taking up more cap as well. This can spiral down further as you end up reducing efficiency even more to get you tank and cap to acceptable levels and wind up making a cap stable fit look attractive.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-05-12 19:13:55 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Jacob Holland wrote:
IIshira wrote:
I knew a guy who spent about 4 hours doing level 4's in a Raven. When I saw his fit of course not one BCS or missile rig... His answer "Well I wanted to be cap stable"

There are several factors which contribute to the drive towards cap stability but one of the most important is simply that newer characters have fewer skills... Their damage is likely to be very low, their tank thinner than older characters. When a character with 24 million missile skillpoints fits a BCU they might go from two volleys to alpha, or four volleys to three to kill specific rats - a newer player might also gain one volley but it might be one in ten or more. If it's going to take you two hours to finish an L4, where any error is going to leave you capped out, unable to run your hardeners (and probably having to look for both a new ship and your last agent) the draw of greater cap stability can be quite significant.

It is also worth considering how other games' analogues of capacitor work. If your attack chain is too much for your stamina and your toggles turn off...

I do agree that with lower skills it requires more cap mod harder to become cap stable. When you combine this with low DPS because of low missile skills and they end up wondering why it takes so long to run missions with their with a 250 DPS cap stable Raven.
Maybe I misread Jacob's post, but it seems you missed part of his point. New players with lower skills have game mechanics working against them. They have lower DPS and/or damage application due to skills, which means they will already be taking longer in missions. As a consequence they potentially have more hostile DPS on the field longer, meaning they may need a more resilient tank, taking away from fitting slots for DPS/Application, and possibly taking up more cap as well. This can spiral down further as you end up reducing efficiency even more to get you tank and cap to acceptable levels and wind up making a cap stable fit look attractive.

I understood that point but my point was by reducing their already poor DPS to become cap stable they're making things worse. Maybe they could've been putting out 400 DPS even with poor skills but with all the cap mods now they're putting out 250. Of course some of this can be mitigated with a bling fit but that opens another can of worms.

II'm not saying go for the uber fits with 1 min of cap but if you're getting 5 min of cap with max burst tank it's plenty
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-05-12 19:29:13 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I also think mission runners should stop being terrible and put cap boosters on their ships rather than three cap rechargers or something equally silly.

800's are cheap as ****, require minimal microing and let you use your mids for applying more dps.

I've never liked cap boosters but they are needed for some fits. The Nightmare being a primary example so you can fit your shield mods and still have room for tracking computers. I don't use one on my Paladin mainly because it has plenty of cap without one.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#40 - 2014-05-12 20:40:12 UTC
IIshira wrote:
my point was by reducing their already poor DPS to become cap stable they're making things worse. Maybe they could've been putting out 400 DPS even with poor skills but with all the cap mods now they're putting out 250. Of course some of this can be mitigated with a bling fit but that opens another can of worms.

II'm not saying go for the uber fits with 1 min of cap but if you're getting 5 min of cap with max burst tank it's plenty

Well, yesno. This 5-minute-cap rule of thumb holds only if you are able to get the situation under control within that time. I haven't figured exact numbers but with a pinch of tactical asspull I'd reckon that it translates to be able to clear whole room under 10 minutes. So if any given dude even with optimal fit struggles to clear the room in 20 minutes or more then let's face it, he needs to be stable for time being.
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