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Dev Blog: CSM 9 Results!

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Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2014-05-10 06:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Darin Vanar
Lucas Kell wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Apparently this is rocket science level V.

If you actually read the thread carefully from the beginning and sound the big words out you will see that a big concern is that a lot of players aren't aware that the CSM process even exists. Wouldn't giving away free stuff alleviate most of that concern? Perhaps we can compare the number of people who voted in the election to the number of people who got their free Gecko drones?
Yes, I get that genius. Do you not understand that Voting for a prize != Engagement? Voting for a prize would get more votes, certainly, but it would undermine the fundamental reason for the CSM, since voting at random just for a prize would be far far worse than not voting.
I plainly stated earlier that voting for a prize equals turnout and you hope the result is that some of those people end up engaged in the process.
lol, how are you still not understanding that turnout by giving people prizes does nto mean people are engaged. Sure, you might get a handful of people that are, but the majority would click randomly for their prize, which would destroy the process for anyone that IS engaged. If the only thing that mattered for a vote was the raw turnout numbers, then sure, prizes would work, but that's not all that matters so it's a ridiculous idea. Like lets just destroy the CSM process yeah, and for what? A random piece of junk that's worth some peasant amount?


You know what else destroys the purpose of being engaged? Opening up a batch of browser windows for every candidate, and reading their essay on their platform, then carefully considering your voting arrangement only to end up running into a bloc on results day, that voted their own candidate and your vote(s) only made the 0% - 2% (250) section.

That's why voter turnout is oh so important.

At least give me a T-Shirt for all that work that says 'I voted as an independent' or 'I voted in a bloc' so it's not a total waste of time for participating in the process. Or rather, that's the idea of giving some insignificant something to players that do decide to vote, so as not to have it in their minds as a negative experience.

Also in real life, it discourages people from voting when they feel their vote makes no difference, but since it's on a much larger scale it doesn't really show the shortcomings of the system as much when it doesn't work optimally. (IE, low voter turnout = easy to manipulate or undermine, however you want to call it.)

So it wouldn't hurt to throw them a bone every now and again. Like WoW hands out pets - it doesn't mean anything, and doesn't affect the economy in any way, to give out some cosmetic item to spruce up these community events to encourage people to participate and dispel any sour feelings if things go south for your candidate. You will be less likely not to vote next year.

Marketing is the cornerstone of democracy.
Dave Stark
#202 - 2014-05-10 06:21:12 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
still waiting david

for?
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#203 - 2014-05-10 07:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk MacGirk
Darin Vanar wrote:


Marketing is the cornerstone of democracy.


Really? Is it? In all seriousness, marketing is not the cornerstone of democracy. It may be the cornerstone of campaigning, but not that of democracy. Having the right to participate in the most basic democratic function is the cornerstone of democracy, even in the face of overwhelming odds and the probable loss by the candidate of your choice.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2014-05-10 08:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Darin Vanar
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Darin Vanar wrote:


Marketing is the cornerstone of democracy.


Really? Is it? In all seriousness, marketing is not the cornerstone of democracy. It may be the cornerstone of campaigning, but not that of democracy. Having the right to participate in the most basic democratic function is the cornerstone of democracy, even in the face of overwhelming odds and the probable loss by the candidate of your choice.


If you don't know an election is going on, who is going to show up and vote?

And if an election has been held and no one knew about it, how are you going to present your results as official?

Marketing is the cornerstone of making something official in non tyrannical governments, where the order is just handed down.
Marketing as in by definition, getting the word out, about *something*. Getting people together.

Maybe I just chose the wording poorly, but if you cannot get the word out about public events going on, you have a problem with the general population recognizing the result (as official) or just flat out not caring.

That, and the general lobbying going on. Just had no other word that best fits this mold.

That's why democracies make for such strong capitalistic models. But I think we're getting off topic here. :D
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2014-05-10 08:38:07 UTC
That, and the candidate usually being sold as a product, something you buy into - their platform, or just them as a human being, made me use that word.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#206 - 2014-05-10 08:53:24 UTC
CCP Leeloo wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
CCP Leeloo wrote:
stuff

Could you clarify where voters from the Republic of Ireland are classified in that graph please?

It's under the"Other" part.

thank you very much for that.Lol

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#207 - 2014-05-10 09:11:09 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

c. The majority of the player base, high sec, recognized the direction the game is heading, realized the futility of voting and didn't.


Had just a few thousand of them voted - which is not even 1% of the player base - they could have got their 'high sec' guy in. For better or worse most of high sec sits in an insulated bubble, ignorant of the power they have if they could be bothered to rally together. More the fool them.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#208 - 2014-05-10 09:26:42 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

c. The majority of the player base, high sec, recognized the direction the game is heading, realized the futility of voting and didn't.


Had just a few thousand of them voted - which is not even 1% of the player base - they could have got their 'high sec' guy in. For better or worse most of high sec sits in an insulated bubble, ignorant of the power they have if they could be bothered to rally together. More the fool them.


How can anyone even say nullsec versus hisec or lowsec as though those broad labels matter as much as secondary or tertiary labels? Does a highsec industrialist have more or less in common with a nullsec industrialist or a highsec ganker or a highsec mission runner? These are labels thrown around in an improper manner. I'm not saying representation is perfect, but just because someone may live in one place or the other doesn't mean they don't have more in common than a simple geographic label would imply.

Seriously, we've got to find a way to get past the myth that nullsec hates highsec "carebears", espcecially to the point that nullsec candidates are seeking to destroy it. Without hisec, nullsec wouldn't operate very well and vice versa.
Dave Stark
#209 - 2014-05-10 09:43:40 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Seriously, we've got to find a way to get past the myth that nullsec hates highsec "carebears", espcecially to the point that nullsec candidates are seeking to destroy it. Without hisec, nullsec wouldn't operate very well and vice versa.

or we could just let clueless people carry on not voting so they don't vote for people who're equally clueless and dilute the CSM with people that shouldn't be there.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2014-05-10 11:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Lucas Kell wrote:
The "cartels" as you define them are entirely in your imagination

Great, in that case I'm just going to set up a CSAA and start production for the open market... and then my own alliance will abort the super because they love free market capitalism so much.

You're completely deluded if you don't see the 0.0 cartels on the supercapital, moongoo and rental markets.

.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2014-05-10 11:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Mike Azariah wrote:

Oh and to the abstain idea. I like it. I would prefer that if Abstain wins outright there is another election and none of the original candidates can run in that election. I like to play hardcore.

That sounds fun. "Abstain" bloc vote on the first election to weed out all the independent candidates. Then vote for real on the second election where only the bloc candidates and people who didn't want to get on the CSM anyways are left.

.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2014-05-10 11:44:15 UTC
I look at the industrial redesign coming this summer and wonder how CCP could go so horridly wrong. There is sooooo much to hate about this that I wonder, is every designer at CCP just stupid?


Then I look at CSM. 30K votes out of 300K+ active accounts. 2 goons, several goon pets, nulli, other large mega alliances. NO representation form the casual players or the corps where the majority of the players are... 100 or less players.


Then the redesign makes senses.

Teams: Goons load up a system with all the best teams, crank out vast amounts of goods below anyone else's price, and gank fest anyone trying to move materials into the solar system. HUGE, rich and powerful get larger, richer and more powerful. The majority of players that operate in small corps? Forget about manufacturing post June 4.

Research: Big round up for those with well research BPOs, and insanely long research times for newer players. Have to run billion ISK ships in large batches to get the material reductions.

Cost scaling. 10,000 players running 100K concurrent jobs out of a single small POS, as long as you have the firepower to protect the POS.



CCP, STOP listening to CSM, which only represents 10% of your player base, and start thinking about the 90% of subscribed accounts that ARE NOT in one of these mega alliances.
Dave Stark
#213 - 2014-05-10 11:48:03 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
CCP, STOP listening to CSM, which only represents 10% of your player base, and start thinking about the 90% of subscribed accounts that ARE NOT in one of these mega alliances.

alternatively, that 90% should vote for people that aren't in the "mega alliances" if they dislike it so much.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#214 - 2014-05-10 11:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Seith Kali
LHA Tarawa wrote:
NO representation form the casual players or the corps where the majority of the players are... 100 or less players.

Mike Azariah, Steve Ronuken, DJ Funkybacon, Sugar Kyle and Mangala Solaris would like a word.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2014-05-10 12:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Mike Azariah wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:


It's more than that. Is CSM primarily there to be unpaid junior developers or to hold CCP accountable? I want the latter, but it was abundantly clear that CSM 8 was only interested in the former.


Accountable for what, exactly?

m

For their fuckups.

The only one who ever came close to holding CCP accountable was The Mittani. The Open Letter during the t20 affair (and the media reception it received) had shown that Goonswarm is not afraid of nuclear options and the alliance's roots in an OOG community gave him additional leverage.

The moment CCP forgets that you have the power to blow up the game that their and their families' livelihood depends on, they have no reason to see themselves as accountable to you.
We are just fickle consumers playing one of dozens of great games that are available to us and tomorrow we might already play another game. Their livelihood is at stake.
How can this relationship not result in CCP being held accountable by the player representatives?

Currently CCP deigns to ask the CSM for feedback whenever they like and then they ignore that feedback whenever they like. Just look how casually they threw the DUST CPM under the bus and maneuvered themselves into a PR nightmare despite the CPM (allegedly) kicking and screaming in their attempt to save CCP from itself.
That's not the stakeholder status we were promised. Compared to investors, employees, ... the playerbase is by far the least invested and most volatile element of the equation - and its influence should be disproportionally large to reflect that.

.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#216 - 2014-05-10 12:11:03 UTC
You and Dinsdale should hang out.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Xenuria
#217 - 2014-05-10 12:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Xenuria
I just want to know one thing, how many votes did I get? Excel can't seem to open this document.


I dream of a CSM that is not built up almost entirely of CFC candidates and their pets.

CSM 12 Candidate
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#218 - 2014-05-10 13:21:36 UTC
So almost 15% of the votes came from newly created alt accounts, gotta love block voting.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#219 - 2014-05-10 13:32:24 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
I look at the industrial redesign coming this summer and wonder how CCP could go so horridly wrong. There is sooooo much to hate about this that I wonder, is every designer at CCP just stupid?


Then I look at CSM. 30K votes out of 300K+ active accounts. 2 goons, several goon pets, nulli, other large mega alliances. NO representation form the casual players or the corps where the majority of the players are... 100 or less players.


Then the redesign makes senses.

Teams: Goons load up a system with all the best teams, crank out vast amounts of goods below anyone else's price, and gank fest anyone trying to move materials into the solar system. HUGE, rich and powerful get larger, richer and more powerful. The majority of players that operate in small corps? Forget about manufacturing post June 4.

Research: Big round up for those with well research BPOs, and insanely long research times for newer players. Have to run billion ISK ships in large batches to get the material reductions.

Cost scaling. 10,000 players running 100K concurrent jobs out of a single small POS, as long as you have the firepower to protect the POS.



CCP, STOP listening to CSM, which only represents 10% of your player base, and start thinking about the 90% of subscribed accounts that ARE NOT in one of these mega alliances.

how is it ccp's fault that, if we assume your numbers are true (lol), 90% of the game can't put forth a single candidate
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#220 - 2014-05-10 14:18:26 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
I just want to know one thing, how many votes did I get? Excel can't seem to open this document.


I dream of a CSM that is not built up almost entirely of CFC candidates and their pets.

you came in third to last

the only people you beat were ones i don't think even announced they were running

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.