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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#241 - 2014-05-14 22:47:03 UTC
Xasnevian wrote:

I say, go back to CCP Rise's proposal.


I concur.
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#242 - 2014-05-14 23:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Walter Hart White
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I guess I'm missing something here.
Probably the word “training” in “training advantage”. P
To get the same advantages as you have now, people will in the future have to train for longer.

Quote:
Performance wise they will either remain the same or gain.
Yes, but the training required to get that performance will increase, and so will the gaps between the different stages of having the skills trained.

Maybe I misunderstood the nature of James' complaint then. I took it to mean that what he was losing was the performance difference he trained for, rather than the training time change.

Edit: Actually, he's losing in training advantage as you describe it to anyone who trained SDO V but CDO to anything less than V.


If someone decides to train CDO to V because of dev blog they lost the days they trained it. That is the loss.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2014-05-14 23:27:30 UTC
Walter Hart White wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I guess I'm missing something here.
Probably the word “training” in “training advantage”. P
To get the same advantages as you have now, people will in the future have to train for longer.

Quote:
Performance wise they will either remain the same or gain.
Yes, but the training required to get that performance will increase, and so will the gaps between the different stages of having the skills trained.

Maybe I misunderstood the nature of James' complaint then. I took it to mean that what he was losing was the performance difference he trained for, rather than the training time change.

Edit: Actually, he's losing in training advantage as you describe it to anyone who trained SDO V but CDO to anything less than V.


If someone decides to train CDO to V because of dev blog they lost the days they trained it. That is the loss.



If your using drones you got the advantage of the extra medium drone damage the whole time. If your not actually using drones why do you care and why on earth bother training it. Or do people just collect SP for the sake of it ?

meh ... CCP may well reimburse and if they do fine. Free SP is good SP as you can allocate to skills that kinda suck on your current remap and get 8 days for 7 days. However whining on forums and throwing tantrums is if anything going to make it LESS likely,
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#244 - 2014-05-14 23:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gavin Dax
Walter Hart White wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I guess I'm missing something here.
Probably the word “training” in “training advantage”. P
To get the same advantages as you have now, people will in the future have to train for longer.

Quote:
Performance wise they will either remain the same or gain.
Yes, but the training required to get that performance will increase, and so will the gaps between the different stages of having the skills trained.

Maybe I misunderstood the nature of James' complaint then. I took it to mean that what he was losing was the performance difference he trained for, rather than the training time change.

Edit: Actually, he's losing in training advantage as you describe it to anyone who trained SDO V but CDO to anything less than V.


If someone decides to train CDO to V because of dev blog they lost the days they trained it. That is the loss.


Yes, it is the loss. And it should be reimbursed. What if you trained it a week *before* the dev blog? I can't see any reason that it should *not* be reimbursed.

Tippia has said repeatedly that people should be happy because they are still "gaining" relative to future new players. That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that players may have wasted and therefore "lost" training time relative to *themselves*, and that is what this thread was about.

I would also argue that it's unfair for newer players to even be at a disadvantage, since there are much better ways to implement skill changes that do not do this (I recently created a thread in F&ID about this).
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2014-05-14 23:51:51 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Walter Hart White wrote:
If someone decides to train CDO to V because of dev blog they lost the days they trained it. That is the loss.



If your using drones you got the advantage of the extra medium drone damage the whole time. If your not actually using drones why do you care and why on earth bother training it. Or do people just collect SP for the sake of it ?

meh ... CCP may well reimburse and if they do fine. Free SP is good SP as you can allocate to skills that kinda suck on your current remap and get 8 days for 7 days. However whining on forums and throwing tantrums is if anything going to make it LESS likely,
Considering were talking about 2 months, as we're only addressing those who trained it based on the blog, were it not something I'd already had for a considerable amount of time and I knew the final resolution that was decided upon there is no way I'd train CDO beyond whatever level I had it. Using 7 days to get 5% for 2 months seems like a horrible return on time investment compared to just about anything else I could train that isn't going to be handed to me.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#246 - 2014-05-14 23:55:15 UTC
I can understand the complaint here. In prior skill changes, CCP has given a massive SP advantage to older players (say, those with Command Ships trained) at the expense of both existing new players (without Battlecruisers V or Command Ships) and hypothetical future new players. This change only gives old players (SDO V + CDO V) an advantage over the unborn future new players, not the existing new-ish players (SDO V + CDO less than V). That is clearly inconsistent and unfair.

The obvious solution is to reward everyone who trained both skills to V with Combat Drone Operation - Elite trade items. Or possibly a Civilian Hobgoblin.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#247 - 2014-05-15 00:04:41 UTC
Just a quick question here. Based on Tippia's chart, it looks like if I get Scout Drone Operation to V before the change, I will be rewarded with 3 skills at level V. Is that correct? Or is there something else I need to do to get max advantage from this change?

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2014-05-15 00:06:54 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Just a quick question here. Based on Tippia's chart, it looks like if I get Scout Drone Operation to V before the change, I will be rewarded with 3 skills at level V. Is that correct? Or is there something else I need to do to get max advantage from this change?

SDO V is all you need to capitalize on the changes.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#249 - 2014-05-15 00:09:54 UTC
Cool. Thanks. I've been needing to update my sig for a while anyway.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Zachary Taylor
Yoyodyne corporation
#250 - 2014-05-15 04:23:11 UTC
Just reimburse the Skill Points and give everyone 2 remaps. Problem solved.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#251 - 2014-05-15 04:38:01 UTC
beakerax wrote:
I can understand the complaint here. In prior skill changes, CCP has given a massive SP advantage to older players (say, those with Command Ships trained) at the expense of both existing new players (without Battlecruisers V or Command Ships) and hypothetical future new players. This change only gives old players (SDO V + CDO V) an advantage over the unborn future new players, not the existing new-ish players (SDO V + CDO less than V). That is clearly inconsistent and unfair.

The obvious solution is to reward everyone who trained both skills to V with Combat Drone Operation - Elite trade items. Or possibly a Civilian Hobgoblin.

Uh, Command Ships didn't give people an SP advantage. It's actually faster for a new player to train to CS than it was before. And the pre-skills are useful in any ship when a squad commander now. At least know what you are talking about when you complain about things.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2014-05-15 04:47:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
beakerax wrote:
I can understand the complaint here. In prior skill changes, CCP has given a massive SP advantage to older players (say, those with Command Ships trained) at the expense of both existing new players (without Battlecruisers V or Command Ships) and hypothetical future new players. This change only gives old players (SDO V + CDO V) an advantage over the unborn future new players, not the existing new-ish players (SDO V + CDO less than V). That is clearly inconsistent and unfair.

The obvious solution is to reward everyone who trained both skills to V with Combat Drone Operation - Elite trade items. Or possibly a Civilian Hobgoblin.

Uh, Command Ships didn't give people an SP advantage. It's actually faster for a new player to train to CS than it was before. And the pre-skills are useful in any ship when a squad commander now. At least know what you are talking about when you complain about things.

Vertical progression also got slightly shorter despite adding Destroyers and BC skills if I recall correctly.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#253 - 2014-05-15 05:00:38 UTC
I have a new proposal.

Compensate people for CDO.

But also compensate people the same amount who did not train CDO.


This is only fair as the people that trained CDO will have had the use of it for some time effectively for free, meaning the people who read the blog properly and did not train CDO will be disadvantaged unless they also get compensated.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2014-05-15 05:44:40 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I have a new proposal.

Compensate people for CDO.

But also compensate people the same amount who did not train CDO.


This is only fair as the people that trained CDO will have had the use of it for some time effectively for free, meaning the people who read the blog properly and did not train CDO will be disadvantaged unless they also get compensated.


They did not have "the use of it" for free. They could have trained something else in its place, so training it was at the cost of some other skill. Those people, and only those people, should be compensated, since no one else (besides future new players) is at a disadvantage due to the changes.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#255 - 2014-05-15 06:05:30 UTC
Let's be completely fair and make each character gaining SP from this change take a forced training break proportionally to the SP they gained.

SDO V but no CDO trained? You'll get the three skills at V as before, but your character can't train for as long as it'd take to train up the light and medium drone skills from the start.

SDO V and CDO V? You'll get the three skills at V as before, but your character can't train for as long as it'd take to train the difference in SP between CDO V and the two new skills at V.

No drone skills at all? Nothing happens.

That way nobody will lose the ability to use things they could use before, but the SP "injection" is just a credit you repay in the following days by not training.
This way it's fair for everyone, even those who start training only after the change!

Everybody happy.
:D
Dave Stark
#256 - 2014-05-15 06:09:12 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Let's be completely fair and make each character gaining SP from this change take a forced training break proportionally to the SP they gained.


no, i intentionally don't want to train CDO to V because it's not worth the time for me. i don't want to have my training paused because i didn't train a skill i didn't want prior to a change i didn't ask for.
Mario Putzo
#257 - 2014-05-15 06:09:25 UTC
Just reset all my SP please, so I can train out of this ****** industry stuff I got duped into when I started.

thx bye.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#258 - 2014-05-15 06:17:21 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Let's be completely fair and make each character gaining SP from this change take a forced training break proportionally to the SP they gained.


no, i intentionally don't want to train CDO to V because it's not worth the time for me. i don't want to have my training paused because i didn't train a skill i didn't want prior to a change i didn't ask for.


But surely the new light and medium drone skills will be worth it for you at V, since otherwise you won't be able to use T2 light and mediums!
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2014-05-15 06:21:39 UTC
Of course the SENSIBLE option would have been:

Avionics = SDO current level
LDO = SDO current level

MDO = CDO current level

No lost SP, no need for reimbursement.
Dave Stark
#260 - 2014-05-15 06:23:22 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Let's be completely fair and make each character gaining SP from this change take a forced training break proportionally to the SP they gained.


no, i intentionally don't want to train CDO to V because it's not worth the time for me. i don't want to have my training paused because i didn't train a skill i didn't want prior to a change i didn't ask for.


But surely the new light and medium drone skills will be worth it for you at V, since otherwise you won't be able to use T2 light and mediums!


i could use them anyway.