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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#461 - 2014-05-30 16:11:39 UTC
How about making capital missiles have too much HP to easily firewall (Is this already the case?)

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#462 - 2014-05-30 17:00:10 UTC
After reading the unchanged patch notes, I felt it was prudent to start searching for a buyer because if this is all we can look forward to for this ship, I think the message is rather clear.

Two years ago at this time, the Naglfar and the Phoenix were fairly equal in their inadequacy. The Nag was plagued by a split weapons system and an inhuman SP amount requirement just to come close to being worthwhile, and the Phoenix was quite literally unable to hit a webbed and painted carrier for reasonable dps under the best paper conditions. Fast forward a year and the Nag is now tied for best and the Phoenix is still waiting for its turn in the sun.

I wonder why no one took time to look at the Nag and fear that it might become a "subcap blapping monster"

I suppose we could just wait for Fozzie to go scuttle over to Riot like the last 5 devs have and hope that his successor is the IRL avatar of Tibus Heth and instates sweeping Caldari buffs along side arbitrary Gallente nerfs. Or at least have a basic sense of game balance.

I been kicked out of better homes than this.
D'go Jahn
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#463 - 2014-05-30 17:02:43 UTC
Kathao Crendraven wrote:
...please remake the optical design of it as well, I really don't want to fly a grey chocolate bar in space.


Ohmaigawd this.

For the second most phallic ship in the game it should be a little sexier, no?
Meltmind2
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#464 - 2014-05-30 17:16:19 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
How about making capital missiles have too much HP to easily firewall (Is this already the case?)

Currently all citadel missiles have 1920hp, which means it'd take 6 faction EM smartbomb cycles to kill them off (or a bomb going off). With the speed of torps going to ~4km/sec and cruise missiles to ~6.6km/sec, I don't think firewalling will be an issue for the phoenix.
D'go Jahn
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#465 - 2014-05-30 17:20:50 UTC
Wulfy Johnson wrote:
...Same with every other missile system that looks realy good in eft, put into effect, just cant cut it ingame....


*A few noteworthy caveats being bombers, missile frigates and cruisers. Crows, Condors, Caracals, Cerberus, Tengus (etc.) all have niche roles and viable missile-based fleet setups.

Unlike their smaller counterparts, larger missile ships lack a fun niche within their respective echelons.
Mario Putzo
#466 - 2014-05-30 17:31:26 UTC
So is CCP still changing 4 hulls in order to accommodate these changes that will ultimately leave the Phoenix exactly where it is today because the other 3 dreads will still be better against subcaps, and now apply better damage against other dreads?

Or did Rise/Foz decide that it was silly to adjust 4 ships instead of just tweaking the missiles too effectively apply damage to capital ships while limiting the gains on subcaps?
Jack Terrosky
Kleiner Hund Corporation
#467 - 2014-05-30 17:53:30 UTC
The phoenix is the only Dread that gets Resistance boost from the skill lvl, this means it can take harder beating compared to other Dreads.

For me it looks so
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#468 - 2014-05-30 18:13:15 UTC
Meltmind2 wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
How about making capital missiles have too much HP to easily firewall (Is this already the case?)

Currently all citadel missiles have 1920hp, which means it'd take 6 faction EM smartbomb cycles to kill them off (or a bomb going off). With the speed of torps going to ~4km/sec and cruise missiles to ~6.6km/sec, I don't think firewalling will be an issue for the phoenix.


If a single BS can take out a missile with a round of smartbombs, I think it's not exactly the best design choice. I mean, I'm pretty sure citadel torpedos are the size of a cruiser (I'm fairly sure they aren't the size of a frigate), and it's not like you can smartbomb a cruiser to death in one cycle with a single battleship. A round of 8 normal smartbombs deals 2400 damage, so technically (I'm not sure missiles have resistances) a single cycle could take these missiles out.

Not only from a lore perspective (why would missile designers allow their biggest missiles to be destroyed by a small amount of conventional smartbombs?), but dreadnoughts shouldn't be easy to firewall. Regardless of 4km/s, if you have a decent group of smartbombers they can take off dps from huge ships that should have an impact on the battlefield regardless.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#469 - 2014-05-30 20:35:54 UTC
Freddie Merrcury wrote:
After reading the unchanged patch notes, I felt it was prudent to start searching for a buyer because if this is all we can look forward to for this ship, I think the message is rather clear.

Two years ago at this time, the Naglfar and the Phoenix were fairly equal in their inadequacy. The Nag was plagued by a split weapons system and an inhuman SP amount requirement just to come close to being worthwhile, and the Phoenix was quite literally unable to hit a webbed and painted carrier for reasonable dps under the best paper conditions. Fast forward a year and the Nag is now tied for best and the Phoenix is still waiting for its turn in the sun.

I wonder why no one took time to look at the Nag and fear that it might become a "subcap blapping monster"

I suppose we could just wait for Fozzie to go scuttle over to Riot like the last 5 devs have and hope that his successor is the IRL avatar of Tibus Heth and instates sweeping Caldari buffs along side arbitrary Gallente nerfs. Or at least have a basic sense of game balance.



just want to point out that the same guy that is in that nag in the video has posted this in this thread

"Too late.

It's already a subcap blapping monster in it's current iteration, I was legit concerned you were gonna nerf my baby. ;)

Glad to see it's gonna become an OP wtfpwnmobile \o/"

also if you are really selling your phoenixes can i buy them?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#470 - 2014-05-30 21:41:06 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
I don't understand why only dreadnoughts received a signature radius increase. I thought dreadnoughts were anti-capital, not just anti-dreadnought. I like how carriers were suspiciously absent from this increase, do you think this change would have been too threatening to slowcats otherwise?


If you want to make Minmatar any more pointless, then negating their Gang like bonuses is the way to go.

Giving the Pheonix a painting bonus is totally stupid. It will assist everyone hitting subcaps, and be usless on structures and everything from Dreads up. Carriers will still take a lot of damage from the Pheonix, nice juicy appropriate damage as well, and always hitting.


Fix Moros/ XL Blasters not buff Pheonix.




Just for the record my 'least' worst (fail) suggestion for a TP bonus was in addition to the current iteration of Phoenix resist bonuses.

And again, in no way do I think this is an outstanding idea... it was just an idea that came up while testing on SiSi - isn't that what this thread is for anyway....

For fail fixes to the Phoenix?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#471 - 2014-05-30 21:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
O'nira wrote:
Freddie Merrcury wrote:
After reading the unchanged patch notes, I felt it was prudent to start searching for a buyer because if this is all we can look forward to for this ship, I think the message is rather clear.

Two years ago at this time, the Naglfar and the Phoenix were fairly equal in their inadequacy. The Nag was plagued by a split weapons system and an inhuman SP amount requirement just to come close to being worthwhile, and the Phoenix was quite literally unable to hit a webbed and painted carrier for reasonable dps under the best paper conditions. Fast forward a year and the Nag is now tied for best and the Phoenix is still waiting for its turn in the sun.

I wonder why no one took time to look at the Nag and fear that it might become a "subcap blapping monster"

I suppose we could just wait for Fozzie to go scuttle over to Riot like the last 5 devs have and hope that his successor is the IRL avatar of Tibus Heth and instates sweeping Caldari buffs along side arbitrary Gallente nerfs. Or at least have a basic sense of game balance.



just want to point out that the same guy that is in that nag in the video has posted this in this thread

"Too late.

It's already a subcap blapping monster in it's current iteration, I was legit concerned you were gonna nerf my baby. ;)

Glad to see it's gonna become an OP wtfpwnmobile \o/"

also if you are really selling your phoenixes can i buy them?



Anyone sense a conspiracy here about Naglafar's... I mean didn't GSF/CFC dive headlong into Naglafars to counter PL/N3 Slowcat fleets? (and while yes there's the drone nerf) doesn't it seem, given the post above, a bit suspicious that Nag is getting a back door OP Buff, under the guise of supposedly 'improving' the Phoenix??


/TINFOILHAT

~

Edit: I just want to add, that in light of that video, for those of us that thought we could look forward to dusting off our Phoenx's... don't pull out the Endust just yet.

Give it 3-6 months and when Fozzie doesn't see the spike in Phoenix usage he's expecting post Kronos via Metrics, then we might see him finally willing to take the need to funadmentally fix a Caldari Dreadnaught seriously - at least for the way Eve players play Eve?

Otherwise the only thing ever to tickle your Phoenix tank monsters will be Deathstar POS Guns. :(

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#472 - 2014-05-30 21:58:20 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
O'nira wrote:
Freddie Merrcury wrote:
After reading the unchanged patch notes, I felt it was prudent to start searching for a buyer because if this is all we can look forward to for this ship, I think the message is rather clear.

Two years ago at this time, the Naglfar and the Phoenix were fairly equal in their inadequacy. The Nag was plagued by a split weapons system and an inhuman SP amount requirement just to come close to being worthwhile, and the Phoenix was quite literally unable to hit a webbed and painted carrier for reasonable dps under the best paper conditions. Fast forward a year and the Nag is now tied for best and the Phoenix is still waiting for its turn in the sun.

I wonder why no one took time to look at the Nag and fear that it might become a "subcap blapping monster"

I suppose we could just wait for Fozzie to go scuttle over to Riot like the last 5 devs have and hope that his successor is the IRL avatar of Tibus Heth and instates sweeping Caldari buffs along side arbitrary Gallente nerfs. Or at least have a basic sense of game balance.



just want to point out that the same guy that is in that nag in the video has posted this in this thread

"Too late.

It's already a subcap blapping monster in it's current iteration, I was legit concerned you were gonna nerf my baby. ;)

Glad to see it's gonna become an OP wtfpwnmobile \o/"

also if you are really selling your phoenixes can i buy them?



Anyone sense a conspiracy here about Naglafar's... I mean didn't GSF/CFC dive headlong into Naglafars to counter PL/N3 Slowcat fleets? (and while yes there's the drone nerf) doesn't it seem, given the post above, a bit suspicious that Nag is getting a back door OP Buff, under the guise of supposedly 'improving' the Phoenix??


/TINFOILHAT

I wouldnt be suprised at all.
As it seems cfc benefits mostly of latest changes , can be a coincidence ofc :P
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#473 - 2014-05-31 14:50:44 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
From my use of them ER is WAY more important than EV which is apparent from you needing to make tower guns even bigger targets. I don't like that a min titan being on grid would keep me from hitting caps for full damage.

I CAN'T HIT A TRIAGE CARRIER NOW.

I don't like that.


Agree on that.They are trying to make something more balanced while making it worse

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#474 - 2014-05-31 15:31:54 UTC
They should just make it OP or borderline OP, then nerf back when the dread balace comes.
This is just a CHANGE. Its not a buff, there is to much nerf in dmg application for it to be that...
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#475 - 2014-06-02 23:32:19 UTC
After some SISI testing, I completely understand why Fozzie doesn't wish to lower the Explosion Radius any further. Fears of it becoming a sub-cap blapping monstrosity are well-founded.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#476 - 2014-06-03 09:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Alexander McKeon wrote:
After some SISI testing, I completely understand why Fozzie doesn't wish to lower the Explosion Radius any further. Fears of it becoming a sub-cap blapping monstrosity are well-founded.


With same level of support, would you take a the changed Phoenix over a moros/naglfar for subcap blapping?
Would lowering the expRad to a level where (linked) carriers dont sig tank missiles make you change your answer to the last question?
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#477 - 2014-06-03 18:05:59 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
With same level of support, would you take a the changed Phoenix over a moros/naglfar for subcap blapping?
Would lowering the expRad to a level where (linked) carriers dont sig tank missiles make you change your answer to the last question?
The phoenix needs support slightly more biased in favour of target painters, but with an equivalent number of support ships, I expect it to be preferable to the gun dreads for anti-subcap work. Performance aside, being able to engage @ 0km is highly valuable. My answer stays constant, except to say that things would get even sillier if the explosion radius was lowered.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#478 - 2014-06-03 18:55:21 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
After some SISI testing, I completely understand why Fozzie doesn't wish to lower the Explosion Radius any further. Fears of it becoming a sub-cap blapping monstrosity are well-founded.



Fozzie you really shouldn't try to anonymously post on your Alt(s) in this tread, bro.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#479 - 2014-06-03 19:06:07 UTC
hahaha, I don't think that I've ever been accused of being a CCP alt before, that's a first. Taking a capital escalation-fit Loki (with links) from full armor to ~20% with a single volley is cause for concern about anti-subcap capability.
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#480 - 2014-06-03 19:22:03 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
hahaha, I don't think that I've ever been accused of being a CCP alt before, that's a first. Taking a capital escalation-fit Loki (with links) from full armor to ~20% with a single volley is cause for concern about anti-subcap capability.



but it cant even hit carriers according to this thread, how is it hitting a loki :O !