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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#441 - 2014-05-28 21:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Naomi Knight wrote:
I am just an clueless Caldari chauvinist irl, that thinks the devs hate the Caldari, irl


FYP

Freddie Merrcury wrote:
kinda funny when you think about it

HMLs used to be the bar none best cruiser sized weapons, now they are arguably the worst.

Imagine if the HML's had never been gutted while the rest of the medium sized weapons were buffed to where they are today

we might have something close to that vaunted "balance" that so elusive for some reason.

Except you are crying not laughing. You missed the save Drakes Online campaign by over a year. Deal with it.






Returning to the OP, Fozzie, where are the TC, TE, TD effects on missiles? Are they still coming?

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Andy Koraka
State War Academy
Caldari State
#442 - 2014-05-28 22:58:39 UTC
I'd rather see the Pheonix overtuned than undertuned because at least people will use them. If they're subcap blapping monsters you can nerf them in a month with the next point release with no lasting harm done, but without a compelling reason to switch from the better dreads is going to spend 3billion isk + SP to switch.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#443 - 2014-05-28 23:09:57 UTC
but nuuuuuuu buff spirals

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#444 - 2014-05-29 05:22:06 UTC
So off SiSi again (for down time) and was almost exclusively focused on Battleships in my Phoenix (@ CA1)

I even made sure to have a trusty target painter onboard - which was very helpful and did not affect my tank fit in any way (sure a booster amplifier would be nice, but it's not the make or break of an active tank Phoenix in my unscientific opinion).

Anyway.... While the Phoenix can clearly hit moving battleships, it does not do sufficient damage individually to ward off Bhallgorn or other Nuet/Nos fit BS's... but can only do meaningful damage...

ONLY WHILE SIEGED

Try as I may (and I have good Phoenix/Torp skills) I could not, while sieged, apply enough DPS/VOLLEY damage to make the Bhallgorn think twice about trying to nuet me out. *I have no deeper analysis of what if anything else contributed to this

One thing I did note is that trying to Citadel Cruise fit you are stuck choosing a Sensor Booster over the Target Painter for two reasons:

1) You can't target as far as you can shoot and need the Range Script on the Sebo 2
2) For actually max range firing the Target Painter is useless because it maxes out at 126km range (though I was able to get a single TP hit farther than that [don't ask me why])


CCP Fozzie have you ever thought about adjusting the Phoenix's base range stat to 180km? And what about giving the Phoenix a Target Painter bonus for range per level??

~

I no way do I still like the way this change is being implemented, I still stick by my comments, but for the sake of being constructive I've been on SiSi flying Phoenix after Phoenix to get a real sense for the change, and really really think Target Painters need to be part of that iteration - fitting wise CPU/PG there's no issue and still having a >3 Million EHP (no boosters/links) - but range is useless on Citadel Cruise fit.

Would like to hear your thoughts Fozzie?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#445 - 2014-05-29 09:23:19 UTC
I think you're supposed to have a Bellicose in fleet, mate. You know, the only EWAR cruiser with 56km base range and a buff to TP's which have a base range of 96km. *MASSIVE EPILEPTIC WHALE SIZED EYEROLL*

You know, just in case 220km targeting BBs were in any danger from TP's being landed on you from a tankless wet handkerchief of a Minmatar T1 EWAR cruiser, Fozzie has pre-nerfed the Minnie to uselessness by dumping a stupidly low targeting range into it.

Same with the Phoenix, mate. Why should you be able to target as far as your missiles fly? Clearly the Phoenix was designed by committee to use a missile system designed to hit nothing that exists in the universe, as long as that target sits well within 120km range, just in case you wanted to be cynoed so far away from a POS that it might require POS guns which can hit out to the extent of the grid. You know, like POS EWAR.

Besides, lore-wise, TP's are Minmatar toys. Because autocannons clearly need the signature radius of their foes to be pumped up in order to hit deep, deep into falloff (hit quality is kind, don'tcherknow, not actually doing anything nearly as good as Scorch or Null lolol) whereas wise Caldari weapons scientists said "You know, our missiles are crap but it won't matter. just add Falcon."

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#446 - 2014-05-29 10:10:34 UTC
Well, many tried to make the raven works in fleets after the balancing, because looking at eft it should be alle to rival the maelstrom.. Same with every other missile system that looks realy good in eft, put into effect, just cant cut it ingame.

So maybe superior to the ole phoenix, its still crap and then some.. It will need more application to beeing remotly useful due to missile drawbacks..
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#447 - 2014-05-29 10:39:08 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:


One thing I did note is that trying to Citadel Cruise fit you are stuck choosing a Sensor Booster over the Target Painter for two reasons:

1) You can't target as far as you can shoot and need the Range Script on the Sebo 2
2) For actually max range firing the Target Painter is useless because it maxes out at 126km range (though I was able to get a single TP hit farther than that [don't ask me why])


CCP Fozzie have you ever thought about adjusting the Phoenix's base range stat to 180km? And what about giving the Phoenix a Target Painter bonus for range per level??


You're not going to be soloing in your Phoenix. Get someone else to fit the painter.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#448 - 2014-05-29 18:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Gypsio III wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:


One thing I did note is that trying to Citadel Cruise fit you are stuck choosing a Sensor Booster over the Target Painter for two reasons:

1) You can't target as far as you can shoot and need the Range Script on the Sebo 2
2) For actually max range firing the Target Painter is useless because it maxes out at 126km range (though I was able to get a single TP hit farther than that [don't ask me why])


CCP Fozzie have you ever thought about adjusting the Phoenix's base range stat to 180km? And what about giving the Phoenix a Target Painter bonus for range per level??


You're not going to be soloing in your Phoenix. Get someone else to fit the painter.



Soloing no... but a lot of folks in this thread have been mentioning WH use. So yes it would be proper to have support that included a bellicose, but if a Golem can have bonus to TP, then why not the big brother?

What won't be happening is seeing Phoenix's in any meaningful way, other than 'its the only dread I have because I fail' invites, in Capital Fleets. And that's not theory; I'm confident that a majority of people haven't trained the Phoenix for many years now. In fact the last time I undocked mine there were players that were shocked that I had one, and were excited (not for it's epic tank or merits as a Dread) but because they had never seen one before outside of images and videos.

We 'may' see some Alliance decide to get some use out of Phoenix's as a niche and unexpected counter/ambush, but for all intents and purpses it will never be as widely used as the turret Dreads - not as is, and not after these changes.

With that said, why not make it a small captial gang brawler? It's not like it would hurt the phoenix or the community to have a dread that helps out WH pilots, seeing as it's never going to gain traction in 0.0 Captial Fleet fights (except for a B-R5RB situation where everyone is throwing EVERYTHING they have, which may not occur again for months or years at a time)

So I say definately boost the innate targeting range to 180km to actually be able to target out to what you can shoot at, and possibly consider giving a ship bonus to Target Painting (like the Golem) for small captial gang brawling in WH (and anywhere else in K-space someone is brave enough to try it and not get hot dropped)

I mean if we're gonna have to take this 'change' as is, might as well throw out some least worst suggestions, eh?



Edit: Heck give me a bit of a drone bay on the Phoenix, and you could throw a single TP drone in there as well - get a double TP that way!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#449 - 2014-05-29 18:47:09 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

So I say definately boost the innate targeting range to 180km to actually be able to target out to what you can shoot at, and possibly consider giving a ship bonus to Target Painting (like the Golem) for small captial gang brawling in WH (and anywhere else in K-space someone is brave enough to try it and not get hot dropped)

!



The bonused target painter bonus isn't the worst idea i have ever heard. At this point it would be more useful than a resist bonus at least. Not to mention it would be the closest thing to a tracking computer you could fit in a missile ship. What a shame TP stacking penalties are so damning.

I been kicked out of better homes than this.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#450 - 2014-05-29 19:06:43 UTC
Freddie Merrcury wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

So I say definately boost the innate targeting range to 180km to actually be able to target out to what you can shoot at, and possibly consider giving a ship bonus to Target Painting (like the Golem) for small captial gang brawling in WH (and anywhere else in K-space someone is brave enough to try it and not get hot dropped)

!



The bonused target painter bonus isn't the worst idea i have ever heard. At this point it would be more useful than a resist bonus at least. Not to mention it would be the closest thing to a tracking computer you could fit in a missile ship. What a shame TP stacking penalties are so damning.

Well if the goal is to give the Phoenix a useful role, it would make sense to have a TP bonus and the resist bonus combined on the same hull. The TP bonus, and stronger tank, would make it more appealing to small groups that don't have the extra manpower/ships to bring a dedicated TP ship for the cap. (Think WH mass limits and such) The stronger tank also makes it more survivable for a small gangs without outshining the other dreads for large fleets.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#451 - 2014-05-29 20:30:27 UTC
If the phoenix gets a TP bonus I'm going to hate everything more loudly.

Nothing should be balanced for wormholes; because they are magical.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#452 - 2014-05-29 21:18:17 UTC
If CCP ever makes a module that reduces explosion radius by a significant percentage, I believe it will be one of the most powerful and popular weapon buff modules in the game.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#453 - 2014-05-29 21:21:13 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
If the phoenix gets a TP bonus I'm going to hate everything more loudly.

Nothing should be balanced for wormholes; because they are magical.



nothing is balanced for wormholes, ccp just keeps wormholes in mind when balancing stuff so it doesn't get out of control in wormholes.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#454 - 2014-05-29 22:49:48 UTC
I don't understand why only dreadnoughts received a signature radius increase. I thought dreadnoughts were anti-capital, not just anti-dreadnought. I like how carriers were suspiciously absent from this increase, do you think this change would have been too threatening to slowcats otherwise?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#455 - 2014-05-30 03:07:36 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
If CCP ever makes a module that reduces explosion radius by a significant percentage, I believe it will be one of the most powerful and popular weapon buff modules in the game.



Will never happen because Flare and Rigor Rigs fill that role - though how adequately is entirely in question; particularly in the context of this thread topic.

Though I pre-supposed you were being facetious ?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#456 - 2014-05-30 03:32:24 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
If CCP ever makes a module that reduces explosion radius by a significant percentage, I believe it will be one of the most powerful and popular weapon buff modules in the game.



Will never happen because Flare and Rigor Rigs fill that role - though how adequately is entirely in question; particularly in the context of this thread topic.

Though I pre-supposed you were being facetious ?


Yet there are also metastasis rigs that increase a turrets tracking, so your statement is kind of invalid. CCP does need a mod that is not a rig to fit to missile ships to increase their explosion velocity or decrease your missiles explosion radius.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#457 - 2014-05-30 03:40:23 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
If CCP ever makes a module that reduces explosion radius by a significant percentage, I believe it will be one of the most powerful and popular weapon buff modules in the game.



Will never happen because Flare and Rigor Rigs fill that role - though how adequately is entirely in question; particularly in the context of this thread topic.

Though I pre-supposed you were being facetious ?


Yet there are also metastasis rigs that increase a turrets tracking, so your statement is kind of invalid. CCP does need a mod that is not a rig to fit to missile ships to increase their explosion velocity or decrease your missiles explosion radius.


Think you need to look in the Freighter/JF balance thread, any mod that reduce expRad will be implemented with a nerf to missiles expRad. So that you HAVE to use 1-2 mods just to reach the same values as you currently have (not a good change for missiles)
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#458 - 2014-05-30 04:08:43 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
If CCP ever makes a module that reduces explosion radius by a significant percentage, I believe it will be one of the most powerful and popular weapon buff modules in the game.



Will never happen because Flare and Rigor Rigs fill that role - though how adequately is entirely in question; particularly in the context of this thread topic.

Though I pre-supposed you were being facetious ?


Yet there are also metastasis rigs that increase a turrets tracking, so your statement is kind of invalid. CCP does need a mod that is not a rig to fit to missile ships to increase their explosion velocity or decrease your missiles explosion radius.


Think you need to look in the Freighter/JF balance thread, any mod that reduce expRad will be implemented with a nerf to missiles expRad. So that you HAVE to use 1-2 mods just to reach the same values as you currently have (not a good change for missiles)

Luckily for us, missiles are already nerfed. As far as I know, light missiles are the only heavily used missile system (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong),mainly because, in general, missiles have damage application problems.

EDIT: at least for PVP

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#459 - 2014-05-30 10:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
[quote=Gypsio III]

With that said, why not make it a small captial gang brawler? It's not like it would hurt the phoenix or the community to have a dread that helps out WH pilots, seeing as it's never going to gain traction in 0.0 Captial Fleet fights (except for a B-R5RB situation where everyone is throwing EVERYTHING they have, which may not occur again for months or years at a time)

So I say definately boost the innate targeting range to 180km to actually be able to target out to what you can shoot at, and possibly consider giving a ship bonus to Target Painting (like the Golem) for small captial gang brawling in WH (and anywhere else in K-space someone is brave enough to try it and not get hot dropped)

I mean if we're gonna have to take this 'change' as is, might as well throw out some least worst suggestions, eh?

Edit: Heck give me a bit of a drone bay on the Phoenix, and you could throw a single TP drone in there as well - get a double TP that way!


A small capital gang brawler doesn't need 180 km lock range. Nor does it need a drone bay for painter drones, nor a painter bonus, and certainly not at the cost of the powerful and valuable resist bonus - which is currently responsible for the planned Phoenix's great superiority in anti-capital work over the Naglfar in those small capital gangs you refer to.

Fit the damn painter on another ship. You're not soloing.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#460 - 2014-05-30 11:50:23 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
I don't understand why only dreadnoughts received a signature radius increase. I thought dreadnoughts were anti-capital, not just anti-dreadnought. I like how carriers were suspiciously absent from this increase, do you think this change would have been too threatening to slowcats otherwise?


If you want to make Minmatar any more pointless, then negating their Gang like bonuses is the way to go.

Giving the Pheonix a painting bonus is totally stupid. It will assist everyone hitting subcaps, and be usless on structures and everything from Dreads up. Carriers will still take a lot of damage from the Pheonix, nice juicy appropriate damage as well, and always hitting.


Fix Moros/ XL Blasters not buff Pheonix.