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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#381 - 2014-05-21 16:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Freddie Merrcury
In general, Fozzie missed the forest for the trees in this "buff"

Instead of looking directly at the problems with the weapons system, he simply made any change he could that would impact in no way how well the ship actually performed compared to other ships of its class.

Even if the only change made was the explosion velocity buff, it would still be only comparable to other dreads in damage to caps and structures, and a far cry from the "subcap blapping" boogeyman that lives under Fozzie's desk and tangles his computer cords while he sleeps at night.

The tank bonus is a meaningless charity granted only to be taken away when the Phoenix can actually apply damage at some future point when the cycle of buffs comes round again

I been kicked out of better homes than this.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2014-05-21 20:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Allison A'vani
If you live in the "real world," instead of inside EFT, you would realize that in every cap fight since ever (and in basically every large sub cap fight) everyone just approaches an anchor. No archon can actually ever "speed tank," a citadel cruise or torp missile as they are never going full speed, you will at most go 3/4 of your speed (more like 1/2 speed tops since you are constantly bumping) if you are at all approaching a target. In most cases, when you cyno into a cap fight you just sit there and do not move, unless you are being told to align to a celestial or are getting in range to neut out another target. Both of these are to ensure that you are in rep rage of everyone else in your fleet.

With this change all the other dreads will still be better since the other 3 can apply damage better to sub caps, and 99% of all cap fights have sub caps either as tackle or support, so the Phoenix after this change will actually be worst in almost all cases. The other reason it is not seen as much is due to the current armor capital meta that has existed for several years.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#383 - 2014-05-22 03:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Freddie Merrcury wrote:


... a far cry from the "subcap blapping" boogeyman that lives under Fozzie's desk and tangles his computer cords while he sleeps at night.



I just wanted to take a moment to point out to our venerable community what an AWESOME statement this is.


Please run for CSM 10


And.... to keep the posting on topic: Clearly Phoenix lovers and concerned pod pilots everywhere do not want this 'change'. So like with the Freighter change, the Dev team working on this needs to go back to the drawing board.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#384 - 2014-05-23 05:24:42 UTC
Hmm another ostrich balancing by Fozzie

Post the "prefered" changes ,then dug head deep into sand so no argument reach you about why these changes are bad.
---> no need to do any extra work job done

"Hey guys, we have a pass on the Phoenix and Citadel Missiles for your feedback. "
Yeah pass by while ignoring any feedback
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#385 - 2014-05-23 06:17:56 UTC
I gotta say, between this thread and the (missile using) Mordu's thread, there has been a resounding lack of Dev replies. Given that Rise is out sick, that places more of a load on Fozzie, but at some point he must have taken notice of the feedback in these threads no matter how overworked he might be. So... anyone else feeling like a second class citizen?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#386 - 2014-05-23 16:56:29 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
I gotta say, between this thread and the (missile using) Mordu's thread, there has been a resounding lack of Dev replies. Given that Rise is out sick, that places more of a load on Fozzie, but at some point he must have taken notice of the feedback in these threads no matter how overworked he might be. So... anyone else feeling like a second class citizen?



Yeah the silence is pretty deafening.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Sebastian Sorana
Doomheim
#387 - 2014-05-23 18:56:33 UTC
Thanks for this ccp, been waiting for long years for this.
teta231
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#388 - 2014-05-23 20:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: teta231
Burneddi wrote:
During a heated Jabber discussion with a passionate Phoenix fanatic who claimed that nerfing the explosion radius and buffing the Explosion Velocity will actually help with application on subcaps, I ran some numbers. The results were somewhat interesting. Our Phoenixes are fitted with Citadel Torpedoes, 2x T2 Rigors and a T1 Rigor (due to Calibration constraints). Targets have Evasive Maneuvers links, Afterburners, and are webbed and painted to hell and back. Only application is considered, the paper DPS buffs caused by the ROF buff aren't included here as they're largely irrelevant.

First off, the relevant stats from both of the Phoenixes:
CURRENT PHOENIX: 816 Explosion Radius, 30 Explosion Velocity
NEW PHOENIX: 1224 Explosion Radius, 52.5 Explosion Velocity

TARGET: Proteus, double 1600 Reinforced Steel Plates II, 10mn Afterburner II; affected by 4xStasis Webifier II from a Loki and 4xTarget Painter II from a Hyena. Signature: 598m, top speed: 53m/s.

CURRENT PHOENIX APPLICATION:
Damage multiplier: 0.4148168701
Stationary damage: 0.7328431373
Moving damage: 0.4148168701
Minimum tanking speed 21.98529412

NEW PHOENIX APPLICATION:
Damage multiplier: 0.4839530152
Stationary damage: 0.4885620915
Moving damage: 0.4839530152
Minimum tanking speed 25.6495098

(key: damage multiplier is the final percentage of total paper deeps applied to target. Stationary damage is what you would do if the target was stationary, moving damage is what you would do if they were moving. Minimum tanking speed is the minimum speed in meters per second they have to be moving at to effectively be considered moving by the formula)

In other words, against a small target like a cruiser that is moving well above the Explosion Velocity of the current Phoenix, the new Phoenix actually applies more damage. This isn't because of Explosion Velocity being better, it's simply caused by the 25% disparity between the nerf and the buff. As you can see in the numbers here, the new Phoenix would apply about 14.3% better to this Proteus.

What happens when we shoot at a battleship, say an Abaddon?

TARGET: Abaddon, 3x Reinforced Steel Plates II, 100MN Afterburner II; affected by 4xStasis Webifier II from a Loki and 4xTarget Painter II from a Hyena. Signature: 1122m, top speed: 35m/s.

CURRENT PHOENIX APPLICATION:
Damage multiplier: 1
Stationary damage: 1.375
Moving damage: 1.178571429
Minimum tanking speed 41.25

NEW PHOENIX APPLICATION:
Damage multiplier: 0.9166666667
Stationary damage: 0.9166666667
Moving damage: 1.375
Minimum tanking speed 48.125

As you can see, here against a significantly larger and slower target the roles are somewhat ironically reversed. The current Phoenix applies full damage to this Abaddon, whereas the new Phoenix would only apply 91% of its paper DPS. The reason this happens is signature and it isn't really related to speed at all, webbed battleships are well slow enough for even the old Phoenix's measly 30m/s Explosion Velocity to be adequate, whereas the worse Explosion Radius of the new Phoenix gimps it against armor battleships (but would be enough for shield battleships).

Of course the Phoenix pilot could pop Crash and still apply full damage to these battleships with the new Phoenix, but I don't really think that's relevant to these points.

Also, here's the spreadsheet I made and used to get these numbers in case you want to test them out yourself. It's quite barebones, so to get the Explosion Radius etc. for the new Phoenix you'll have to do some calculus.


HiddenPorpoise wrote:
If my awkward numbers are right supers are taking less dps now, even without links; can someone confirm that?

Probably not. Assuming eg. a Nyx as a target, its signature is several times the Explosion Radius of both the old and the new Phoenix, while its top speed is about 2.5 times the Explosion Velocity of the old Phoenix and 1.7-ish times of the new Phoenix. Both should easily apply full damage to it no matter what. With links and drugs that would change, and both Phoenixes would have to fit Rigors.


if u use TP then u have booster to TP and bs size is from 1,6 to 1,9 k instead from what u assumed 1,1.
However crusier size hulls will be still horrible
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#389 - 2014-05-26 16:24:59 UTC
Will the phoenix be relevant this year? Dev silence is strong in this tread..
Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#390 - 2014-05-26 16:40:31 UTC
Wulfy Johnson wrote:
Will the phoenix be relevant this year? Dev silence is strong in this tread..


I agree. The silence from CCP on this is a bit frustrating.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#391 - 2014-05-26 17:24:34 UTC
Gnoshia wrote:
Wulfy Johnson wrote:
Will the phoenix be relevant this year? Dev silence is strong in this tread..


I agree. The silence from CCP on this is a bit frustrating.

Don't worry, it's not just this thread. The Devs haven't been spotted in the Mordu's thread for many pages, but legend has it that when the forum dwellers finally bow down and worship the almighty Devs they will return and they will bring many ****** up balancings and tiercides and the mindless sheep will rejoice for fear of driving away the Devs with "feedback", "critique", or "opinions".
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#392 - 2014-05-26 17:29:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
I hope those who have already posted will keep this thread on their radar, so the feedback is not simply dismissed as "Attack of the Tr011z".

Personally, and based on those in this thread who know Maths way better than myself; and after playing with the new Phoenix on SiSi - I still think this change is bad.

So to CCP: If we, the vocal opponents, are wrong in the Maths, and practical application for the Phoenix based on this change, then don't leave us hanging; post for us the why and how so we can either see how terribly wrong we are, or continue the discussion.

.... I mean if all a Phoenix needs now is a (fail fit) double Target Painter setup - then just tell us that's what your shooting for?

Cause right now everyone is left wondering if you guys even try flying these ships your attempting to 'fix' before you work on Iterations?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#393 - 2014-05-26 22:21:43 UTC
Byen mostly silent here due to the ammount of good decission and maths in the tread.

My wildguess is that the increased shields is to compensate for use of rigs towards application, but thats at a very stiff price.
If this is the case, it might have been an idea to decrease build requirements for missile application rigs to compensate shield ships..
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#394 - 2014-05-27 01:29:14 UTC
phoenix is gonna be ridiculous after patch. thanks ccp, capital torps 5 here i come
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#395 - 2014-05-27 03:40:22 UTC
O'nira wrote:
phoenix is gonna be ridiculous after patch. thanks ccp, capital torps 5 here i come


Good luck finding anyone that will let you fly it in Cap Fleet (non-structure shoot)

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#396 - 2014-05-27 05:40:45 UTC
Okay so I just got my first chance to get some shots on an Archon on SiSi @ Combat Area 1: the results were... erm horrid.

So I was at 190km(ish) using Sensor Booster and Citadel Cruise missiles; and while I don't have any charts as such I can report that at first damage was par normal at around 22k damage per volley (using Thermal damage type) on his armor UNTIL...

He started gaining speed.

And as he got significantly closer to his max speed I watched my volley damage go from 22k down to 7k volley damage, and was continuing to drop, (and he wasn't at 100% velocity yet) before I was so disgusted I simply shut down the launcher.

So it's not a Tr011 when Math experts point out that Carrier's can kite damage - they totally can.


I can't confirm this categorically, but from shooting at other capitals on SiSi, this is only an issue with carriers.


And as far as I can see - even though there seems to be a boost to ehp, it's impossible to run as more than a active buffer while sieging red, waiting to get out of siege. Really seems just like the same old Phoenix: A really awesome structure shooting Dreadnaught.

Roll

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#397 - 2014-05-27 10:33:48 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
O'nira wrote:
phoenix is gonna be ridiculous after patch. thanks ccp, capital torps 5 here i come


Good luck finding anyone that will let you fly it in Cap Fleet (non-structure shoot)



Because cap blobs are the only use for dreads.
BiggestT
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#398 - 2014-05-27 11:34:47 UTC
Hi everyone, I made more graphs! This is a follow-up to my last thread here.

So what do the graphs mean?

The graphs show that even after 20 minutes, the new phoenix barely out damages the old one. In addition, the old phoenix does similar dps over time to the new one when shooting targets with 900m sig, even with non-kinetic ammo.

The only real advantage is we can now get max dps with different ammo types, but considering the armour tanking, omni tanking cap meta, this is much less advantageous than Fozzie is making out.

We did get more tank, but tank was never an issue on the phoenix, so I don't know why we had to trade...

Sure the EV went up, but considering that caps will often anchor or stay stationary to remain in rep range, the EV buff will go largely un-noticed, especially given that triage carriers can now sig tank citadel torps as well.

So why is this a big deal?

Because the old phoenix was meh, the new phoenix is now super meh. The old one could at lest apply some damage to smaller ships in certain scenarios, the new one will be seriously gimped. And its old problems that limited its use *still remain*.

We need substantial investment in t2 cap rigs just to get decent application. This is unacceptable for fleets and a prohibitive issue.

We also get less bang for our buck, citadel missile ammo use is going to be a b*tch with the ROF changes. Notice the larger amount of flat bumps on the graphs, that's your launchers reloading.

So what now?

PLEASE FOZZIE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD lessen the nerf to explosion radius, we still have the issue of delayed damage etc, why can't the phoenix be good or at least passable? We already have to invest hugely in rigs to get passable numbers.

If not, then BUFF THIS SHIP'S CPU. Then at least we can fit a 4th damage mod and not the mandatory co-pro...

A reddit discussion on the same topic can be found here

Sadly I feel that Fozzie will keep ignoring us Sad
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#399 - 2014-05-27 11:44:18 UTC
O'nira wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
O'nira wrote:
phoenix is gonna be ridiculous after patch. thanks ccp, capital torps 5 here i come


Good luck finding anyone that will let you fly it in Cap Fleet (non-structure shoot)



Because cap blobs are the only use for dreads.


If the changes go through as is then yes that would be their only use

They won't be more useful in Wormhole

I don't see too many small gang pvpers often roaming around with a dread on cyno

Phoenix will be a Structure and Supercap grinder still. The least versatile dread by a far margin still.

I been kicked out of better homes than this.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#400 - 2014-05-27 13:10:40 UTC
I'm not ignoring this thread at all. That being said, I am well aware of the kinds of games that can be played in attempts to win theorycrafting arguments.

I am especially amused by the implication that 900m sig radius capitals are somehow more common or significant than casually bumping or slowboating capitals. Smile

The new Phoenix is far superior to the old one and although I can understand the natural desire to always want more power it's not always in the best interests of the game to indulge in excessive buff spirals.

Of course we aren't ruling out any future changes to the Phoenix and other dreads (especially the Rev).

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie