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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#361 - 2014-05-19 14:45:09 UTC
Hijacking page 19

Burneddi wrote:
But anyway, I doubt that their actual intentions are to nerf the blap Phoenix too significantly. From the way these changes to application interact with hitting subcaps I can only imagine they didn't really think them all the way through. A much better change to application would've been for instance to increase explosion velocity by 20% and leave explosion radius alone -- the net buff would've remained roughly the same, we could've avoided having to increase the signature radius of POSes, dreads and hopefully also carriers, and the effects on subcap application would've been essentially the same.

I hereby propose the 20% Buffed Explosion Velocity But Otherwise Vanilla -torpedo change. Its base stats would be 2000m Explosion Radius and 24m/s Explosion Velocity (and of course the buffs to travel speed, which don't affect application). With all 5, its stats would become 1500m Explosion Radius and 36m/s Explosion Velocity. Its application would be almost completely identical (we're talking about a 2.8% difference in favour of my suggestion, they would be identical for moving targets if the explosion velocity was 23⅓m/s but I'm not sure how the system likes fractionals).

For instance, on an Abaddon with a signature of 470m and top speed of 111m/s:

FOZZIE TORP (2250 Explosion Radius, 52.5 Explosion Velocity):
Damage multiplier: 0.0987987988
Stationary damage: 0.2088888889
Moving damage: 0.0987987988
Minimum tanking speed 10.96666667

BEVBOV (1500 Explosion Radius, 36 Explosion Velocity):
Damage multiplier: 0.1016216216
Stationary damage: 0.3133333333
Moving damage: 0.1016216216
Minimum tanking speed 11.28

Or the webbed and painted and linked Proteus I already used in another example, signature 598m and top speed of 53m/s:

FOZZIE TORP:
Damage multiplier: 0.2632704403
Stationary damage: 0.2657777778
Moving damage: 0.2632704403
Minimum tanking speed 13.95333333

BEVBOV:
Damage multiplier: 0.2707924528
Stationary damage: 0.3986666667
Moving damage: 0.2707924528
Minimum tanking speed 14.352

Or, say, a linked untriaged Archon moving at its top speed (essentially a slowcat I guess), with a signature of 1956m and a top speed of 88m/s:

FOZZIE TORP:
Damage multiplier: 0.5186363636
Stationary damage: 0.8693333333
Moving damage: 0.5186363636
Minimum tanking speed 45.64

BEVBOV:
Damage multiplier: 0.5334545455
Stationary damage: 1.304
Moving damage: 0.5334545455
Minimum tanking speed 46.944

As you can see, my BEVBOV suggestion is almost identical as far as application on moving targets is concerned, but doesn't suffer from the completely ridicilous issue of being unable to apply to stationary Archons etc.

EDIT: Revised my suggestion, making it closer to Fozzie's original draft.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#362 - 2014-05-19 14:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Was there any thought to increasing cargohold size, as the rate-of-fire bonus means the Phoenix requires more missiles now?

How many hours of firepower can it currently hold?
And how many hours will it hold after?

And how does that compare to the other caps.

Also going to restate what I said earlier.
Explosion Velocity should be at least the same as the fastest ship in the intended target class (Caps)
In this case Nid at 90 m/s
Explosion Radius should be no larger than the smallest ship in the intended target class.

There is no reason for a weapons system to not be capable of applying 100% of it's DPS to an unfitted ship in the right target class (Assuming matching skill levels, no implants & no boosts.) Implants, Boosts & Fittings will mitigate enough damage.
This should be true for all classes of missiles. (Pretty sure it's already 99% true for Guns)

Actually, an Archon with links can speed tank a fairly good bit of damage from a Naglfar with no tracking rigs/mods, just like it can tank some damage from a Phoenix with no Rigors. The Nag will be looking at applying about 60% of its paper DPS to this target (at 30km), increased to 70-90% with some tracking mods. On the other hand the Phoenix will apply about 50% of its damage with no Rigors, increased to something like 80% of its full damage with 2xT2 Rigors on the new Phoenix. Granted, T2 Rigors are significantly more expensive than Tracking Computers. Hell, even T1 Rigors are. For the record, with T1 Rigors that'd be about 71% damage.

So in that regard, the missiles perform quite similarly. Of course for guns this is assuming that the Archon is moving perfectly perpendicular to the Naglfar, if it's moving at an imperfect angle the guns will apply better.
Max Rico
Sleeper Slumber Party
#363 - 2014-05-19 17:12:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Rico
I support a smaller explosion radius alongside a tinier buff to explosion velocity. Increasing the radius means I won't be able to hit stationary targets for damage. Also, can we please get some low slot modules that effect both radius and velocity? These changes wouldn't be so horrible to the phoenix if there was a module I could equip to address the explosion radius. Midslot too, just like guns. I'm hoping even though I feel like it's pointless that CCP might consider what we, the players, are asking for. I'm not looking for the phoenix to be god of dreads, just on line with its ability to hit ships including battleships should I choose to fit it out that way.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#364 - 2014-05-19 17:19:34 UTC
Max Rico wrote:
Decreasing the radius means I won't be able to hit stationary targets for damage.


Wrong, smaller radius means more damage if the calculation is still less than 1.

People, you want the radius to be smaller and the explosion velocity to be faster, its exactly the same as how you want to fit your ship in perfect conditions, smaller sig and faster speeds.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#365 - 2014-05-19 20:03:15 UTC
Burneddi wrote:

Actually, an Archon with links....

And that was a reading comprehension fail.
If you look I was specifically talking about full damage application without links or skills involved. Bare hull vs bare guns, no tracking mods, no rigs etc. In those cases the missiles still have some their damage mitigated because their base explosion velocity is significantly less than the top speed of a carrier (Or Dread that was moving before it sieged)
While assuming piloting rather than sitting still like a doorknob and letting someone orbit you at their max velocity, guns will almost always be applying properly.

Obviously links will mitigate damage.
Max Rico
Sleeper Slumber Party
#366 - 2014-05-19 20:22:52 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Max Rico wrote:
Decreasing the radius means I won't be able to hit stationary targets for damage.


Wrong, smaller radius means more damage if the calculation is still less than 1.

People, you want the radius to be smaller and the explosion velocity to be faster, its exactly the same as how you want to fit your ship in perfect conditions, smaller sig and faster speeds.

Sorry, I was being bad and mistyped, I meant the increase in explosion radius will hurt missile damage against stationary targets that aren't small planets and or stations.
Tyrion Reeves
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#367 - 2014-05-20 02:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrion Reeves
Short question. will this change affect the citadel torpedos from npcs.
im thinking about the one in the DED complex, since normally its easier to tank it with fast ship ( with ab, not mwd)
would be good to know if this cahnge affects it the same way
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#368 - 2014-05-20 12:44:39 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

And that was a reading comprehension fail.
If you look I was specifically talking about full damage application without links or skills involved. Bare hull vs bare guns, no tracking mods, no rigs etc. In those cases the missiles still have some their damage mitigated because their base explosion velocity is significantly less than the top speed of a carrier (Or Dread that was moving before it sieged)

Even without links, hull vs. hull, an Archon can mitigate at least 22-ish% of a Naglfar's damage. For the new Phoenix, this number is about 22.5%. Actually, the new Phoenix will apply perfectly to this Archon with a couple of Rigors, while a Naglfar will never apply perfectly to it no matter how many Tracking Mods it stacks.

Anyway, this is without links. The main issue with the capital missiles is the signature link being really strong against them. This goes for missiles of all sizes, really, but since the sig radius of capital missiles is so absurdly large it becomes quite a bit more noticeable (especially on Fozzie Phoenix).
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

While assuming piloting rather than sitting still like a doorknob and letting someone orbit you at their max velocity, guns will almost always be applying properly.

Obviously links will mitigate damage.

Manual piloting to make your guns apply better isn't really possible in a sieged dread, but yeah a completely perfect orbit at 100% velocity might be a little stretching it. However in practice you'll be looking at a relatively small deviation from the perfect conditions, which considering the god-awful tracking of capital guns will make very little (literally talking about less than 5%) difference.
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#369 - 2014-05-20 17:38:13 UTC
Wouldn't it be a little more elegant to change the damage reduction factor than to have to change the sig radii of everything the phoenix is supposed to shoot at? If you have to change all of those numbers, it's clear that you're not really causing the change you're seeking.

Hell, it would probably be better to leave the explosion radius the same in addition to the other changes; it will still be entirely inefficient to fire capital weapons at subcaps. As the changes stand now, the phoenix will not become useful enough to change its status as least used dread. :/
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#370 - 2014-05-21 04:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: O'nira
Have you guys played with phoenix in eft? its a freaking monster after patch, no more buffs PLEASE, i dont want it nerfed afterwards for being too freaking ridiculous
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#371 - 2014-05-21 05:00:35 UTC
O'nira wrote:
Have you guys played with phoenix in eft? its a freaking monster after patch, no more buffs PLEASE, i dont want it nerfed afterwards for being too freaking ridiculous

yeah sure big pretty EFT warrior numbers.

Mind you almost all of its meaningless since it can apply less damage than before and its tank is inconsequential since the only thing that has to fear it is other dreads or supers and you can just field subcaps against with no risk.

I been kicked out of better homes than this.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#372 - 2014-05-21 05:25:02 UTC
Why are you so bent on making sure that the Phoenix can't do any damage to subcaps that you're sacrificing its ability to apply damage to capitals?
You seriously, seriously need to re-examine the goals of this rebalance.
Other dreadnoughts have somewhat of an ability to blap subcaps, so why can't the Phoenix do this too?
I think you should keep the current changes except remove the nerf to explosion radius. The fact that you have to increase signature radius of everything you want the Phoenix to be shooting is a pretty telling indicator that you have absolutely no clue what you're doing.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#373 - 2014-05-21 07:51:40 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Why are you so bent on making sure that the Phoenix can't do any damage to subcaps that you're sacrificing its ability to apply damage to capitals?
You seriously, seriously need to re-examine the goals of this rebalance.
Other dreadnoughts have somewhat of an ability to blap subcaps, so why can't the Phoenix do this too?
I think you should keep the current changes except remove the nerf to explosion radius. The fact that you have to increase signature radius of everything you want the Phoenix to be shooting is a pretty telling indicator that you have absolutely no clue what you're doing.


i think its due to the fact that missiles will "always" apply damage even if its only 1 damage or more. while guns will miss completely.. shows how bad the current missile formula will make it a nightmare to balance.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#374 - 2014-05-21 08:22:51 UTC
Roguehellhound wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Why are you so bent on making sure that the Phoenix can't do any damage to subcaps that you're sacrificing its ability to apply damage to capitals?
You seriously, seriously need to re-examine the goals of this rebalance.
Other dreadnoughts have somewhat of an ability to blap subcaps, so why can't the Phoenix do this too?
I think you should keep the current changes except remove the nerf to explosion radius. The fact that you have to increase signature radius of everything you want the Phoenix to be shooting is a pretty telling indicator that you have absolutely no clue what you're doing.


i think its due to the fact that missiles will "always" apply damage even if its only 1 damage or more. while guns will miss completely.. shows how bad the current missile formula will make it a nightmare to balance.

This has nothing to do with it and there's nothing wrong with the missile damage formula.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#375 - 2014-05-21 13:29:45 UTC
So Fozzie, have you and your team reconsidered the Explosion radius nerf and sig increase of dreads and POSs?

If not, you will need to increase the sig of carriers, rorquals, freighters, and JFs.
Meltmind2
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#376 - 2014-05-21 14:56:35 UTC
Fozzie, since you're touching the Phoenix, would you mind taking a look at the Revelation aswell while you're at it?
As it stands right now, the Rev is quite lacking compared to the other dreads (raw dps of the Moros; dps, selectable damage type and lack of capacitor use of the Naglfar). With the upcomming Phoenix changes, this would make the Revelation practically obsolete.

In order to save the Rev, I propose changing the Amarr Dread bonus from 5% capuse/5% RoF to 5% cap use/10% damage per level.
This would increase the dps of a Rev by ~12.5%, putting it in line with the Nag while retaining the current characteristics of laser-based weapons (locked damage type, cap use, instantly swapping crystals and not having to reload).
The capacitor use would go down by about 25% due to the RoF reduction. This would leave the Moros with the highest capacitor guzzeling guns, but that is compensated by their higher dps.
Mario Putzo
#377 - 2014-05-21 15:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Freddie Merrcury wrote:
O'nira wrote:
Have you guys played with phoenix in eft? its a freaking monster after patch, no more buffs PLEASE, i dont want it nerfed afterwards for being too freaking ridiculous

yeah sure big pretty EFT warrior numbers.

Mind you almost all of its meaningless since it can apply less damage than before and its tank is inconsequential since the only thing that has to fear it is other dreads or supers and you can just field subcaps against with no risk.



So bring some Chimeras and have them fit a pile of drone mods and tank, and reps, and then stick some sentries out into space and blap subcaps.

Stop looking at **** in a vacuum for christ sake.

The only downside of these changes is that CCP feels a fix to one single ship...well one single weapon system. Is changing the 4 hulls and a structure. We should be a tad more realistic with this adjustment. Has CCP looked at the fallout from this change? Nagalfars will now project more damage vs Dreads, so why bring a phoenix? Moros will still be king ****, the Rev will have better projection.

Instead of actually buffing the Phoenix to do its job, CCP has decided to buff it, then change ships which indirectly buff every other race as well, thus putting the Phoenix back to exactly where it is today. A ship that can fit a big tank, with lots of potential damage, and terrible application.

Increasing the sig radius of the 4 dreads is bad.
Increasing the sig radius of structures is redundant.

This whole fix is silly, and anyone crying about subcaps is a mong.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#378 - 2014-05-21 15:37:22 UTC
tl;dr of OP: Lets nerf expRad to compensate for buffing expVel. Now increase sigRad of everything to compensate for that.

Makes perfect sense.

Fozzie, you're just making more work for yourself. By increasing expRad, you've actually made subcap damage application worse, not the same. Since the lowest of the reductions is always the one chosen this mathematically limits the possible dps application. It was completely impossible to make the Phoenix a subcap blapping monster without already having target painters. Nothing would have changed.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#379 - 2014-05-21 15:41:20 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Freddie Merrcury wrote:
O'nira wrote:
Have you guys played with phoenix in eft? its a freaking monster after patch, no more buffs PLEASE, i dont want it nerfed afterwards for being too freaking ridiculous

yeah sure big pretty EFT warrior numbers.

Mind you almost all of its meaningless since it can apply less damage than before and its tank is inconsequential since the only thing that has to fear it is other dreads or supers and you can just field subcaps against with no risk.



So bring some Chimeras and have them fit a pile of drone mods and tank, and reps, and then stick some sentries out into space and blap subcaps.

Stop looking at **** in a vacuum for christ sake.

The only downside of these changes is that CCP feels a fix to one single ship...well one single weapon system. Is changing the 4 hulls and a structure. We should be a tad more realistic with this adjustment. Has CCP looked at the fallout from this change? Nagalfars will now project more damage vs Dreads, so why bring a phoenix? Moros will still be king ****, the Rev will have better projection.

Instead of actually buffing the Phoenix to do its job, CCP has decided to buff it, then change ships which indirectly buff every other race as well, thus putting the Phoenix back to exactly where it is today. A ship that can fit a big tank, with lots of potential damage, and terrible application.

Increasing the sig radius of the 4 dreads is bad.
Increasing the sig radius of structures is redundant.

This whole fix is silly, and anyone crying about subcaps is a mong.


This is a very important point. By increasing sigRad of ships, CCP will now be applying a stealth buff to all other capital weapons systems, doing exactly as is quoted above; putting the Phoenix right back where it is.

Clearly and without doubt, we don't need that to happen.

One of the wonderful things about Sisi is we can test the crap out of things until we're happy with them. Plz to be putting un-nerfed new Phoenix and citadel missles on Sisi so we can see just how good/bad they are.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#380 - 2014-05-21 15:50:28 UTC
Awesome change ,gj Fozzie

You made this token change which probably wont help Phonix as much as it needs, still making it not only the worst dread ,but it is still so behind the others that most alliances kick you out if you bring these into any op.

Why cant it have real advatage ? Like the best pos shooter ,when it sux at shooting subcaps and rly the worst shooting other caps.

Also its lock speed is the worst while it has the only delayed dmg , how does that make any sense?
And now it runs out of missiles faster. rly good job there ,but now it can do all dmg type equally , hmm not rly important for a dread most enemies are omni tanked anyway.
Fitting still not improved.

Btw whats the point in changeing all those stats just for a minimal increment in effectiveness?