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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#221 - 2014-05-11 22:23:38 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
Donno if it's been mentioned.. but one thing the Phoenix might be able to do is anti-BS support.. how ? Glad you ask.

Rapid Torpedo/Cruise launchers.

This would follow the progression that Missiles have been going on as of late..


Also, would be nice to see new dreads in general, using the other weapon system of each race.. Totally not a covert way of saying I want a Drone Dread..



No.. just no.. Its a garbage weapon that is hated and you want to put it on the phoenix? You need help, serious mental help.


i agree.. rapid lights fills a niche that has severe drawbacks and the rapid heavies are hardly ever used due to the missile mechanics being derp.

whats probably universally agreed is that the missile mechanics need some serious looking into.. and the earlier comment about the proposed missile mechanics that ended being shelved, might solve a lo of it.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#222 - 2014-05-11 22:31:23 UTC
Rapid heavy launchers aren't terrible but the heavy missiles themselves sure are
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#223 - 2014-05-11 22:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
What's wrong with having a dread that can apply damage to subcaps, anyway?

Especially considering that the subcap must be fully tackled and painted (reward for teamwork is good, eh?), and can easily mitigate this damage if it's not (by moving), plus the omnipresent travel time delay, why shouldn't subcap dps application be the Phoenix's niche among the 4 dreads? There are more then enough tradeoffs to make it balanced.

All this pain over a nerf intended to solve a problem that, IMO, isn't even a problem in the first place.

Overhaul Dscan!
Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#224 - 2014-05-11 22:48:25 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
What's wrong with having a dread that can apply damage to subcaps, anyway?

Especially considering that the subcap must be fully tackled and painted (reward for teamwork is good, eh?), and can easily mitigate this damage if it's not (by moving), plus the omnipresent travel time delay, why shouldn't subcap dps application be the Phoenix's niche among the 4 dreads? There are more then enough tradeoffs to make it balanced.

All this pain over a nerf intended to solve a problem that, IMO, isn't even a problem in the first place.


the pros and cons are perspective really... on one hand people abhor the idea since you could hotdrop constantly with a blap dread(s) and make a mess of any enemy BS fleet, further pushing the usefulness of a battleship out the window(its kinda bad in its current state). and the fact that you could potentially even target cruisers that are locked down is even worse- no real counter play unless escalation of force(bringing your own caps). this is from what i can tell.

but in our current iteration-phoenix is the only one that has the double standards in play in regards to it being able to blap supcaps. i mean people use to do it with very good success.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#225 - 2014-05-12 00:31:40 UTC
Only problem is when they ask for feedback on these things, its pretty much useless to give it. They will push it through not caring
Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#226 - 2014-05-12 00:39:22 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Only problem is when they ask for feedback on these things, its pretty much useless to give it. They will push it through not caring

and not even responding.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#227 - 2014-05-12 14:15:56 UTC
Roguehellhound wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Only problem is when they ask for feedback on these things, its pretty much useless to give it. They will push it through not caring

and not even responding.


Yeah. It' a shame because the changes are almost right. A focus on anticapital work in smaller environments is the only sensible route to take the Phoenix down, as the blap thing is too binary and flight time is too awkward on the fleet scale. The shield resist bonus and omni-damage are good ideas as they set the ship apart from the Naglfar. I can also tolerate the damage applicaiton changes as long as they're done right - you just need to make sure that the Phoenix has an advantage in anticapital work commensurate with its awkwardness to use agaisnt subcaps, but currently the entire thing is hamstrung by the Evasive Manoeuvres link problem.

You're forcing all Phoenix pilots to use Crash against other capitals as a default, out of fear of links. You're also forcing people to always bring links because it gives them the hope of mitigating damage via sig. Both of these are bad design - neither drugs nor link should ever be regarded as essential.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#228 - 2014-05-12 14:36:40 UTC
I have a simple change. Add t2 citadel missiles. Can carry javelines if your worried about sigrad. Factions if your shooting stuff you can paint. And rages if your sieging poses/fighting supers
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#229 - 2014-05-12 14:48:09 UTC
Hey everyone.

I can honestly say that I am not overly worried that carriers being able to reduce a portion of citadel missile damage through the use of gang links and/or halo implants will break the balance involved with these ships. The Phoenix is going to be doing a lot more damage in virtually all realistic situations compared to today and it will be doing it while also benefitting from the resist bonus and omni damage.

That being said, I think there is an opportunity here to both reduce the impact of skirmish links on Phoenixes while also differentiating dreads and carriers a bit. The fact that dreads and carriers have almost identical signature radius has never made much sense, and it is entirely appropriate for stationary dreads to have a much harder time mitigating missile damage.

So we're going to go ahead and increase the sig radius of all four dreads alongside this change:

Revelation:
Signature Radius: 4100 (+1125)

Naglfar:
Signature Radius: 4000 (+1140)

Moros:
Signature Radius: 4300 (+1255)

Phoenix:
Signature Radius: 4200 (+1100)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#230 - 2014-05-12 15:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

I can honestly say that I am not overly worried that carriers being able to reduce a portion of citadel missile damage through the use of gang links and/or halo implants will break the balance involved with these ships. The Phoenix is going to be doing a lot more damage in virtually all realistic situations compared to today and it will be doing it while also benefitting from the resist bonus and omni damage.

That being said, I think there is an opportunity here to both reduce the impact of skirmish links on Phoenixes while also differentiating dreads and carriers a bit. The fact that dreads and carriers have almost identical signature radius has never made much sense, and it is entirely appropriate for stationary dreads to have a much harder time mitigating missile damage.

So we're going to go ahead and increase the sig radius of all four dreads alongside this change:

Revelation:
Signature Radius: 4100 (+1125)

Naglfar:
Signature Radius: 4000 (+1140)

Moros:
Signature Radius: 4300 (+1255)

Phoenix:
Signature Radius: 4200 (+1100)


Do that to carriers and we have a deal. Well address the missile HP issue as well.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#231 - 2014-05-12 15:05:13 UTC
Yes those are missile effect trails coming from me if you are asking
sure
Hey Fozzie you didnt answer about whether pos citadel launchers were getting the ROF boosts
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#232 - 2014-05-12 15:07:19 UTC
Nice change on dreads.

BTW, check the jump fuel thread -- I thought of a potential gotcha with the isotope volume change that you may want to consider.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#233 - 2014-05-12 15:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Kolonko
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

I can honestly say that I am not overly worried that carriers being able to reduce a portion of citadel missile damage through the use of gang links and/or halo implants will break the balance involved with these ships. The Phoenix is going to be doing a lot more damage in virtually all realistic situations compared to today and it will be doing it while also benefitting from the resist bonus and omni damage.

That being said, I think there is an opportunity here to both reduce the impact of skirmish links on Phoenixes while also differentiating dreads and carriers a bit. The fact that dreads and carriers have almost identical signature radius has never made much sense, and it is entirely appropriate for stationary dreads to have a much harder time mitigating missile damage.

So we're going to go ahead and increase the sig radius of all four dreads alongside this change:

Revelation:
Signature Radius: 4100 (+1125)

Naglfar:
Signature Radius: 4000 (+1140)

Moros:
Signature Radius: 4300 (+1255)

Phoenix:
Signature Radius: 4200 (+1100)


What about -50% from wolf rayet wh? Halo+mindlinked bonuses+wolf rayer c6 = very little damage from missiles

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#234 - 2014-05-12 15:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander McKeon
The dread changes are good, but you still haven't said anything to address missile hp concerns, nor speed tanking by moving carriers/bumped dreads in siege.

The corner case of citadel missiles in a wolf-rayet can probably be ignored since only a silly FC would use shield dreadnoughts there.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#235 - 2014-05-12 16:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Klarion Sythis
Max Kolonko wrote:

What about -50% from wolf rayet wh? Halo+mindlinked bonuses+wolf rayer c6 = very little damage from missiles


Why are you planning to use a shield dread in a Wolf Rayet?

Edit: Nevermind, this was pointed out in the post above.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#236 - 2014-05-12 17:08:15 UTC
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#237 - 2014-05-12 17:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

I can honestly say that I am not overly worried that carriers being able to reduce a portion of citadel missile damage through the use of gang links and/or halo implants will break the balance involved with these ships. The Phoenix is going to be doing a lot more damage in virtually all realistic situations compared to today and it will be doing it while also benefitting from the resist bonus and omni damage.

That being said, I think there is an opportunity here to both reduce the impact of skirmish links on Phoenixes while also differentiating dreads and carriers a bit. The fact that dreads and carriers have almost identical signature radius has never made much sense, and it is entirely appropriate for stationary dreads to have a much harder time mitigating missile damage.

So we're going to go ahead and increase the sig radius of all four dreads alongside this change:

Revelation:
Signature Radius: 4100 (+1125)

Naglfar:
Signature Radius: 4000 (+1140)

Moros:
Signature Radius: 4300 (+1255)

Phoenix:
Signature Radius: 4200 (+1100)

u wot m8

"These application changes are totally good. We'll only have to increase the signature of stationary POS modules so that the Phoenix can continue hitting them... and the signature of dreadnoughts... and the signature of carriers..."

fozzie PLS

EDIT: so this officially confirms you want to make the Phoenix a mediocre dread for shooting capitals, and the worst dread for shooting subcapitals. As a contrast, the current Tranquility incarnation of the Phoenix is mediocre at both.
Brutor Brutor
Kissapasi Corporation
#238 - 2014-05-12 17:13:35 UTC
CCP "helicopter" Fozzie showing yet again that he doesn't understand how EVE works.

A+ change.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#239 - 2014-05-12 17:14:00 UTC
Burneddi wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

I can honestly say that I am not overly worried that carriers being able to reduce a portion of citadel missile damage through the use of gang links and/or halo implants will break the balance involved with these ships. The Phoenix is going to be doing a lot more damage in virtually all realistic situations compared to today and it will be doing it while also benefitting from the resist bonus and omni damage.

That being said, I think there is an opportunity here to both reduce the impact of skirmish links on Phoenixes while also differentiating dreads and carriers a bit. The fact that dreads and carriers have almost identical signature radius has never made much sense, and it is entirely appropriate for stationary dreads to have a much harder time mitigating missile damage.

So we're going to go ahead and increase the sig radius of all four dreads alongside this change:

Revelation:
Signature Radius: 4100 (+1125)

Naglfar:
Signature Radius: 4000 (+1140)

Moros:
Signature Radius: 4300 (+1255)

Phoenix:
Signature Radius: 4200 (+1100)

u wot m8

"These application changes are totally good. We'll only have to increase the signature of stationary POS modules so that the Phoenix can continue hitting them... and the signature of dreadnoughts... and the signature of carriers..."

fozzie PLS


Yes it is ridiculous but at the same time, they hate the idea of the phoenix being as effective as gun dreads and somehow missiles being better though they never will be. So i rather capital ships get a sig increase than to continue to let the phoenix suck.
Brutor Brutor
Kissapasi Corporation
#240 - 2014-05-12 17:19:19 UTC
Hagika wrote:


Yes it is ridiculous but at the same time, they hate the idea of the phoenix being as effective as gun dreads and somehow missiles being better though they never will be. So i rather capital ships get a sig increase than to continue to let the phoenix suck.


I guarengoddamn-T you they give citadel missiles 70 HP so you can just firewall them.