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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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Claud Tiberius
#201 - 2014-05-11 01:19:04 UTC
Thanks for sharing.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#202 - 2014-05-11 01:29:09 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Rather it will have unique damage application that will prove an asset to capital fleets in a number of situations and otherwise be a basic functional dread.

I once thought as you do. But yes, it's the tankiest dread by far before the change and is only getting heavier.

They had to make freaking towers bigger for this change if you hadn't noticed.


Well, that's because up to now freaking star bases were effectively 2/3 the size of dreadnoughts for the love of God. THAT was the gaff.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#203 - 2014-05-11 04:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix. The other thing that you are saying is that the Phoenix was crap against sub caps before, and it's crap against sub caps now, so there's really no change in its anti-sub cap performance. So increased DPS against caps, including ones that are moving faster than before, plus tank, and damage type selection. So basically, you're saying the Phoenix has been buffed. Further, you're contradicting, as I did, the legion of posters above who whined about Archons with skirmish links.

Don't get me wrong, I think the explosion radius on torps will be extreme. However, I appreciate you confirming that the ship has been buffed and will do fine against pretty much any cap regardless of links and Titan support.


Nice ad hominem. Liking data and understanding and enjoying math are not personality problems...

Anyway, the Phoenix will concretely do more damage against capitals (Torps will do up to 24.4% more DPS at the cost of 12.5% volley damage, while Cruise will do up to 21.1% more DPS at the cost of 25% volley damage), that's a fact. It'll see a ~6.67% increase to paper DPS at the cost of 25% volley damage. Damage against POS modules will simply increase by 6.67% (since they were all already above the highest value for explosion radius, and with the changes, still will be).

The only exception to this is if you can drop a capital's sig under 2250m. Incidentally, this is the case with a Skirmish-boosted Archon (sig of 1956m when boosted by a Legion, 1913m when boosted by an Astarte/Eos). Against the Astarte/Eos boosted one, for example, the Phoenix will see a drop of ~9% DPS against the Archon if it is moving at less than ~38 m/s (and only an increase if it is moving above ~43 m/s).

Against subcaps, the Phoenix was already crap, but is now even MORE crap.

Example, a torp-fit Phoenix flown by an All-V pilot currently on live does 11326 DPS with a volley of 147517 (4 Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems), with an explosion radius of 1500m and an explosion velocity of 30 m/s. Against a webbed Battleship moving at 20 m/s with a sig of 400m, the Phoenix would deal 26.7% damage, or 3020 DPS with a volley of 39338.

That same Phoenix after patch will deal 12081 DPS with a volley of 118014 (gained 25% RoF buff, lost 25% kinetic damage bonus, net is +6.67% DPS, -25% volley damage), with an explosion radius of 2250m and an explosion velocity of 52.5 m/s. against that same webbed Battleship, the Phoenix now does 2148 DPS (-29%) with a volley of 20980 (-47%)

That's a pretty serious nerf, especially if they are going to continue to let Moros and Nags blap webbed and painted battleships like they are POS modules.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2014-05-11 05:14:00 UTC
Donno if it's been mentioned.. but one thing the Phoenix might be able to do is anti-BS support.. how ? Glad you ask.

Rapid Torpedo/Cruise launchers.

This would follow the progression that Missiles have been going on as of late..


Also, would be nice to see new dreads in general, using the other weapon system of each race.. Totally not a covert way of saying I want a Drone Dread..
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2014-05-11 05:38:53 UTC
Howabout make a capital MWD, then reduce capital speed enough that they have to use the MWD to go "fast"? That way they can't go fast to screw with the citadel torpedoes because they will just blow up their sig radius so much it'll negate the speed damage reduction.

Another good way to help is boost the explosion velocity of citadel missiles but also increase their damage reduction factor. They shouldn't lose damage on something as slow as a capital, but something only twice as fast (say, a trimarked and plated Abaddon) should be able to speed tank those missiles. And its sig radius is so much smaller that if it doesn't activate a MWD, there's pretty much no way to blow up the Abaddon's sig radius high enough for the citadel missiles to get full damage on it.

And if you could alter the Phoenix's layout in such a way as to promote the use of target painters, then it would be easier for Phoenix pilots to just paint their capital target, reducing the necessity for the missiles to do full damage to an unpainted nano capital. They can of course paint a supcap, but a missile designed around the expectation that a painter will be used is actually even harder to use against smaller targets due to stacking penalty.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2014-05-11 05:58:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Sniper Smith wrote:
Also, would be nice to see new dreads in general, using the other weapon system of each race.. Totally not a covert way of saying I want a Drone Dread..
I support this.

I'd like to see a new lineup of dreads:

Amarr armor resist dread with laser optimal range--sniper dread with tank

Caldari railgun sniper dread with 250km optimal using iron XL with max skills but no range boost mods/rigs/links/implants

Gallente fighter dread, 3 fighters deal over carrier DPS, or 3 fighter-bombers deal regular dreadnought DPS. Also armor repair bonus.

Minmatar missile dread with shield boost bonus.

And that would make 4 tanky dreads total!

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#207 - 2014-05-11 12:19:05 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

Ok by my math, the new Phoenix with one T1 Rigor, one T1 Bay Loading Accelerator, and one T1 Flare, and a pilot with perfect skills, will do less than maximum damage at around 2075 sig radius to a ship that is moving below the speed tank threshold. However, it will still out DPS the current Phoenix using kinetic damage down to about 1950 sig radius. Not many triage carriers are going to get down to 1950 sig radius. And this will be with with any damage type, not just kinetic. Further, the current Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with a 1950 sig radius if it goes 85 m/s, but the new Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with 1950 sig radius at about 120 m/s. So I'm sorry, all the crap about triage carriers sig tanking and speed tanking a Phoenix is really just bullshit. Also, I have not considered implants in any of this, so an implanted pilot should be able to hit ANY capital ship for more damage than currently, Ragnarok on field or not. If they take my recommendation and lower the torpedo explosion radius to 2500, even max skirmish links and a Ragnarok won't be able to hinder a Phoenix.

Keep in mind that this damage will never vary at all and will be exactly the same whether the ship is 500 meters away or 60 km away. I find it hard to believe that people seem to think that range doesn't count for anything.

My response to the guy above basically hinged around his thinking the Phoenix was crap unless it can wreck battleships. So you returning to this delusional argument about Phoenixes getting sig tanked by triage carriers is completely irrelevant to the point he was making or the point I was making.

The point is, current Phoenix can easily apply its damage to Triage carriers even without rigors, whereas the new Phoenix needs rigors to apply to triage carriers. This isn't even a hypothetical situation, if a triage Archon has links it'll be well below the explosion radius of the new Citadel Torps, and practically every triage Archon has and will have links.

You should not be required to fit Rigors to be able to apply properly to stationary capital ships.

I explained the importance of Explosion Radius and the relative unimportance of Explosion Velocity a little here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4565374#post4565374 and I suggest you go read it
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#208 - 2014-05-11 13:22:01 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
The problem is that the Evasive Manoeuvres link is far too powerful, as is the Ragnorak's sig bonus. Sig reduction bonuses of that magnitude break the balance between guns and missiles, because of the different damage application formulas.


Quoting myself, probably pointlessly. Roll

If you're not using links where capitals are involved, then you're probably doing it wrong. Links are too powerful to simply be an optional extra. They're necessary, they're ubiquitous and a balancing process that regards them as optional extras will give the wrong results.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#209 - 2014-05-11 13:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
To be honest the whole explosion radius thing is really contrived; a missile hits a stationary target head on, in the face, what do you think will happen?...

(Ok, I suppose you could argue 50% of the blast is radiated away, unless of course it's a 'directed' warhead...)

Really wish the missile system proposed 10 years ago had actually come off (large missiles, very low agility at launch, difficulty hitting manoeuvring, i.e. agile, targets up close)

Edit: for reference to the above, the '2nd' attempt at a missile system (1st being release): http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=79439 (see TomB's comments on 'Big end note')


I'm not really sure I understand what I'm looking at in those old forum notes.

Obviously several new mechanics and missile systems have been introduced since then not to mention the "kestrel with cruise launchers" is by todays standards patently ridiculous.
Allow me to explain the whole story...

Quote:
Late 2003 to early 2004 missiles were very powerful, Battleships would fit cruise missiles as ‘fly swatters’ given that anything travelling slower than a cruise missile, would watch the missile coming in, and if it didn’t warp off/manually target the missile (yes, you could do that back then) you’d get splattered… at any range. In trying to rebalance small vs big during this time, Turrets got their ‘signature resolution’ as part of the last major tracking mechanic rebalance (early 2004).

So, early-mid 2004 they [CCP] developed a very novel , Gucci system whereby the missiles agility came into play with regards how well they would 'hit'. Agility being a logical choice, given that the smaller, faster ships have intrinsically higher agility and should be able to evade the really big missiles, if they are smart…. If you weren’t smart/moderately competent and didn’t evade it, well you would be paste (logical, no?).

Those big missiles in particular (e.g. Cruise), would come out of the tubes relatively slowly then accelerate away rapidly gaining speed (i.e. a reasonably realistic idea, like a TLAM –gets ejected out of tube, rocket kicks in and rapidly accelerates it away)

At longer ranges (once the rocket motor was fully spun up) they had a better chance to hit a moving target, kind of analogous to long range turrets 'blapping' at the higher ranges. There was no 'Explosion Radius' or ‘Explosion Velocity’ back then. The weakness was obviously that at shorter ranges the motor hadn’t fully spun up, so it was slower, not able to change course as well, so smaller targets could get under them and evade, missile runs out of fuel, game design balance achieved. At long ranges however, if you sat around not moving, the idea was if you subsequently took a cruise missile to the head, well… you just took a cruise missile to the head… *pop*

It was all set for release (can’t recall which patch) then was pulled at the last minute. Afterwards we got the 'Explosion Radius'/'Explosion Velocity' fudge. I say “fudge” as the problem with it is the silly situations that arise, like hitting a stationary target head on, and yet not doing full damage. Also it’s putting too many game mechanics into the ‘signature’ basket, which inevitably leads to extreme situations and balancing nausea. Agility is a relatively underused parameter, which could/would have made for a much more interesting diversity of weapons systems.

If you think about it logically, Explosion ‘Velocity’/’Radius’ is meaningless as missiles in eve have to make contact, and only makes sense if the missiles were actually blast weapons (which, realistically, would be kinda hopeless in space – you always want a contact detonation…). Well, we’ve not had AoE missiles (torpedoes) since 2004… (though, those were fun times)

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2014-05-11 16:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
Burneddi wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

Ok by my math, the new Phoenix with one T1 Rigor, one T1 Bay Loading Accelerator, and one T1 Flare, and a pilot with perfect skills, will do less than maximum damage at around 2075 sig radius to a ship that is moving below the speed tank threshold. However, it will still out DPS the current Phoenix using kinetic damage down to about 1950 sig radius. Not many triage carriers are going to get down to 1950 sig radius. And this will be with with any damage type, not just kinetic. Further, the current Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with a 1950 sig radius if it goes 85 m/s, but the new Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with 1950 sig radius at about 120 m/s. So I'm sorry, all the crap about triage carriers sig tanking and speed tanking a Phoenix is really just bullshit. Also, I have not considered implants in any of this, so an implanted pilot should be able to hit ANY capital ship for more damage than currently, Ragnarok on field or not. If they take my recommendation and lower the torpedo explosion radius to 2500, even max skirmish links and a Ragnarok won't be able to hinder a Phoenix.

Keep in mind that this damage will never vary at all and will be exactly the same whether the ship is 500 meters away or 60 km away. I find it hard to believe that people seem to think that range doesn't count for anything.

My response to the guy above basically hinged around his thinking the Phoenix was crap unless it can wreck battleships. So you returning to this delusional argument about Phoenixes getting sig tanked by triage carriers is completely irrelevant to the point he was making or the point I was making.

The point is, current Phoenix can easily apply its damage to Triage carriers even without rigors, whereas the new Phoenix needs rigors to apply to triage carriers. This isn't even a hypothetical situation, if a triage Archon has links it'll be well below the explosion radius of the new Citadel Torps, and practically every triage Archon has and will have links.

You should not be required to fit Rigors to be able to apply properly to stationary capital ships.

I explained the importance of Explosion Radius and the relative unimportance of Explosion Velocity a little here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4565374#post4565374 and I suggest you go read it


I've been thinking that a part of the Phoenix's problem has been the myopia of relying on basic EFT principles to fit Phoenixes. Basically as it stands right now Phoenixes are fit with two Bay Loading Accelerators because increasing ROF is the most effective way to increase paper DPS. This is a bad decision. The BLAs do give the largest chunk of extra DPS, but they still don't give more close range DPS than a Moros and even without them the Phoenix still has the highest long range DPS. Frankly, the second BLA is basically the difference between whether your Phoenix will out damage a Moros at 30 km range rather than at 40 km range. Tactically it really doesn't do much. All dreads do 'major' damage. The extra DPS from the second BLA really just means staying on the field for a few extra seconds. Yet this second BLA also means you can't fit any flares or rigors, and people run around whining that the Phoenix can't hit anything moving or anything small. Well, it's because you didn't fit any Rigors or Flares, dumbasses. I'm fitting my Phoenix right now with them when they are even more important to hit anything moving over 60 m/s. The phoenix is designed for the player to choose between ROF rigs or explosion radius or explosion velocity rigs, or whatever else. Rigors and Flares will become more valuable after the expansion. They're already valuable now, frankly.

For the record, though, my proposed changes to the Phoenix would be exactly what the deVs have proposed except for:

2,500 explosion radius for Citadel Torpedoes, 1875 explosion radius for Citadel Cruises.
2,500 hit points for all Citadel missiles.
+100 CPU.

The CPU should get rid of the mandatory Co-Processor. The 2,500 hit points for the missiles should make a firewall basically impossible to build, and the explosion radius changes should go a long way to keeping the current Phoenix's current levels of crappiness vs sub caps and make a properly fit Phoenix immune to any kind of missile debuff. The Phoenix will not have the highest close range DPS, but it will have the most consistent DPS not only by range but in the fact that citadel missiles will be in every way unstoppable.

I think the reasoning that the debs may be using is that if a fleet wants to bring a Ragnarok, or if it wants to use skirmish sig radius links instead of some other kind of link, it should actually be effective. I am not certain how effective a massive sig radius link is against a turret boat. I haven't done that math yet. What I do know is that with a Rigor, the new Phoenix will los damage at about 1950, and it doesn't just instantly drop to nothing. It's still pretty good damage.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#211 - 2014-05-11 17:19:32 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix.
Everything smaller than 2000 is taking less damage than before (assuming perfect skills). Yes caps all fall over that line but it comes at the cost of no longer even touching subcaps. Unless the goal is for all dreads not to touch subcaps that's bad.

Also, seeing a triage carrier sig tank your 'buffed' weapons is rather upsetting. It also means more reloads on the reloadiest of dreads.


Ok by my math, the new Phoenix with one T1 Rigor, one T1 Bay Loading Accelerator, and one T1 Flare, and a pilot with perfect skills, will do less than maximum damage at around 2075 sig radius to a ship that is moving below the speed tank threshold. However, it will still out DPS the current Phoenix using kinetic damage down to about 1950 sig radius. Not many triage carriers are going to get down to 1950 sig radius. And this will be with with any damage type, not just kinetic. Further, the current Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with a 1950 sig radius if it goes 85 m/s, but the new Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with 1950 sig radius at about 120 m/s. So I'm sorry, all the crap about triage carriers sig tanking and speed tanking a Phoenix is really just bullshit. Also, I have not considered implants in any of this, so an implanted pilot should be able to hit ANY capital ship for more damage than currently, Ragnarok on field or not. If they take my recommendation and lower the torpedo explosion radius to 2500, even max skirmish links and a Ragnarok won't be able to hinder a Phoenix.

Keep in mind that this damage will never vary at all and will be exactly the same whether the ship is 500 meters away or 60 km away. I find it hard to believe that people seem to think that range doesn't count for anything.

My response to the guy above basically hinged around his thinking the Phoenix was crap unless it can wreck battleships. So you returning to this delusional argument about Phoenixes getting sig tanked by triage carriers is completely irrelevant to the point he was making or the point I was making.


They made stations bigger to compensate for the nerf. Every other dread can murder sub caps and hit for full on all caps, the phoenix cant do either and still falls into last place vs sub caps and is 3rd in dps to stations and vs cap ships it will still be last as before. Do you get it now? Or are you so anti missile that you gloat about it.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#212 - 2014-05-11 17:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
which, realistically, would be kinda hopeless in space – you always want a contact detonation…


Not to nit-pick, but this is very wrong. High explosives almost always do more damage with proximity detonations than contact detonations, because a larger portion of the target is struck by the concussion wave, and the concussion wave is the majority of the damage.

As an example, take a depth charge. A contact depth charge will blow a hole in the side of a single ship, probably sinking it. A proximity charge, on the other hand, will cause two types of damage. First, the initial concussion will strongly damage the ship (and is even strong enough to cause major joint injuries to people standing on anything in contact with the superstructure). Second, the expansion and contraction of the gas bubble it produced will cause repeated shear stress on a ship, resulting in either the ship literally breaking apart, or at the least springing hundreds of micro-fractures that almost always lead to loss of the ship.

And it does this to every ship in range, not just the ship hit.

Now for space-based missiles, they are almost certainly shaped high-explosive charges. As a result, you want the missile to detonate near enough to the object that the shaped explosive is effective, but far enough that the resulting wave of material actually has time to accelerate from the gaseous expansion (since concussion waves are essentially meaningless in space). This generally means you do not want a contact detonation, but in fact a near-proximity detonation.

Quote:
I'm fitting my Phoenix right now with them when they are even more important to hit anything moving over 60 m/s. The phoenix is designed for the player to choose between ROF rigs or explosion radius or explosion velocity rigs, or whatever else.


This seems odd to me. No other Dread has to fit damage application rigs just to actually deal full damage to other capitals (particularly stationary Siege/Triage ones), but the Phoenix is essentially required to fit at least one Rigor rig to actually deal full DPS (which is already substantially lower than a Blaster Moros). Every single Dread and Carrier drops under 2250m sig with skirmish links, unless fit with shield rigs, so without that Rigor rig, the Phoenix essentially has an innate 10-15% damage reduction built in.

If they are balanced around using the Rigor rig, it seems a bit out of balance, to be frank. That means they only get 2 rigs to play with, instead of the 3 that other dreads get, or intrinsically do 10-15% less DPS than their paper DPS (which is already low for a dread). If that's the case, why are they even making the change? It's basically taking what they have now, requiring the application of a Rigor rig to continue to do what they can do now, slightly increasing damage against capitals moving at full tilt, and drastically dropping their damage against anything smaller than a capital.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#213 - 2014-05-11 18:14:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Linkxsc162534
^
What if they were HESH rounds?
They are high explosives you want to detonate on the surface of the target because a great deal of the damage they do is significantly expanded by the inside of the armor spalling.

Also high explosives dont always do more damage in a proximity explosion. Depth charges like you said and naval torpedoes rely on concussive blasts only they really only worked for damaging ships within several meters. DCs were great for antisub though because the cuncussions were made more effective by the extra water pressure on the sub hulls. It was really water pressue that killed most subs after their hulls were damaged.
However for air to air. They do prox explosions simply to have better odds of the damage reaching a fast moving target.

Which in the case of eve is kinda true with how they modeled the missile explosion radius mechanics. Kind true but horribly wrong when you start considering links and mwd sig bloom. Tps are understandable though in that your missile was able to track closer to the target and deliver more of the blast.

Ofcourse real weapon rules never apply in eve.

On topic. I dont understand why they couldnt shave off a bit of the exprad nerf so it would be say 2750 base rather than 3000. And then in a later patch rework it from there. Still would need rigs for fighting small stuff. But a skilled player wouldnt be seeing as many issues. And added bonus is that links will still so a slight bit of damage reduction.
Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2014-05-11 18:15:35 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Burneddi wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

Ok by my math, the new Phoenix with one T1 Rigor, one T1 Bay Loading Accelerator, and one T1 Flare, and a pilot with perfect skills, will do less than maximum damage at around 2075 sig radius to a ship that is moving below the speed tank threshold. However, it will still out DPS the current Phoenix using kinetic damage down to about 1950 sig radius. Not many triage carriers are going to get down to 1950 sig radius. And this will be with with any damage type, not just kinetic. Further, the current Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with a 1950 sig radius if it goes 85 m/s, but the new Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with 1950 sig radius at about 120 m/s. So I'm sorry, all the crap about triage carriers sig tanking and speed tanking a Phoenix is really just bullshit. Also, I have not considered implants in any of this, so an implanted pilot should be able to hit ANY capital ship for more damage than currently, Ragnarok on field or not. If they take my recommendation and lower the torpedo explosion radius to 2500, even max skirmish links and a Ragnarok won't be able to hinder a Phoenix.

Keep in mind that this damage will never vary at all and will be exactly the same whether the ship is 500 meters away or 60 km away. I find it hard to believe that people seem to think that range doesn't count for anything.

My response to the guy above basically hinged around his thinking the Phoenix was crap unless it can wreck battleships. So you returning to this delusional argument about Phoenixes getting sig tanked by triage carriers is completely irrelevant to the point he was making or the point I was making.

The point is, current Phoenix can easily apply its damage to Triage carriers even without rigors, whereas the new Phoenix needs rigors to apply to triage carriers. This isn't even a hypothetical situation, if a triage Archon has links it'll be well below the explosion radius of the new Citadel Torps, and practically every triage Archon has and will have links.

You should not be required to fit Rigors to be able to apply properly to stationary capital ships.

I explained the importance of Explosion Radius and the relative unimportance of Explosion Velocity a little here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4565374#post4565374 and I suggest you go read it


I've been thinking that a part of the Phoenix's problem has been the myopia of relying on basic EFT principles to fit Phoenixes. Basically as it stands right now Phoenixes are fit with two Bay Loading Accelerators because increasing ROF is the most effective way to increase paper DPS. This is a bad decision. The BLAs do give the largest chunk of extra DPS, but they still don't give more close range DPS than a Moros and even without them the Phoenix still has the highest long range DPS. Frankly, the second BLA is basically the difference between whether your Phoenix will out damage a Moros at 30 km range rather than at 40 km range. Tactically it really doesn't do much. All dreads do 'major' damage. The extra DPS from the second BLA really just means staying on the field for a few extra seconds. Yet this second BLA also means you can't fit any flares or rigors, and people run around whining that the Phoenix can't hit anything moving or anything small. Well, it's because you didn't fit any Rigors or Flares, dumbasses. I'm fitting my Phoenix right now with them when they are even more important to hit anything moving over 60 m/s. The phoenix is designed for the player to choose between ROF rigs or explosion radius or explosion velocity rigs, or whatever else. Rigors and Flares will become more valuable after the expansion. They're already valuable now, frankly.

For the record, though, my proposed changes to the Phoenix would be exactly what the deVs have proposed except for:

2,500 explosion radius for Citadel Torpedoes, 1875 explosion radius for Citadel Cruises.
2,500 hit points for all Citadel missiles.
+100 CPU.

The CPU should get rid of the mandatory Co-Processor. The 2,500 hit points for the missiles should make a firewall basically impossible to build, and the explosion radius changes should go a long way to keeping the current Phoenix's current levels of crappiness vs sub caps and make a properly fit Phoenix immune to any kind of missile debuff. The Phoenix will not have the highest close range DPS, but it will have the most consistent DPS not only by range but in the fact that citadel missiles will be in every way unstoppable.

I think the reasoning that the debs may be using is that if a fleet wants to bring a Ragnarok, or if it wants to use skirmish sig radius links instead of some other kind of link, it should actually be effective. I am not certain how effective a massive sig radius link is against a turret boat. I haven't done that math yet. What I do know is that with a Rigor, the new Phoenix will los damage at about 1950, and it doesn't just instantly drop to nothing. It's still pretty good damage.



now now, there is no reason to call anyone "dumbasses". it seems you are quick to call others names or disparage them in some form.. remember "personality disorder"? makes me wonder about you.


And like someone stated, why the heck does a single dread needs to fit rigs while the others don't?
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#215 - 2014-05-11 18:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
Which in the case of eve is kinda true with how they modeled the missile explosion radius mechanics. Kind true but horribly wrong when you start considering links and mwd sig bloom. Tps are understandable though in that your missile was able to track closer to the target and deliver more of the blast.


Keep in mind that these missiles are a good deal more high-tech than ours are today. Iirc, the lore behind the sig radius thing is that the warheads in the missiles can dynamically alter yield, charge shape, and explosion timing to best counter the target. The sig radius is less about the ship actually being hit by shrapnel from a broad spread and more about the missile being able to properly and accurately gauge the target's movement and trajectory and reshape the missile so all the shrapnel (or EM wave, or concussion wave, or whatever) actually hits it.

Since that accurate analysis is based upon properly reading the target's position, larger cross-sections on the sensor reduce the error bars on those calculations. Turning on the MWD allows the missile's sensor package to lock on to the target better and thus shape and fire the charge more accurately.

Incidentally, this entire concept breaks down a bit against a stationary target, hence why I still claim the Sig/ExpRad cap on missile damage is fundamentally stupid, and completely unrequired. Turrets can hit for full damage against a stationary target, regardless of size, and against a moving target, missile damage is already appropriately reduced by the explosion velocity component.

Edit: Links reducing the sig radius is a bit more complex, and I think it's severalfold. First off, sig radius isn't passive (MWD and shield mods demonstrate that), it's a measure of the active signature your ship gives off, from all of its electronics minus it's electronic counter-measures built in to reduce this sig (example, Logi cruisers having significantly lower sig than their T1 cruiser counterpart of the same hull design). In addition, it's based on how much electronic "noise" the ship has to give off, on average, to do it's job. That includes sensors, engine emissions, etc.

Skirmish links provide two things: firstly, they provide auxiliary processing power for the navigation system, allowing the ship to better evade targets (effectively smaller sig radius, because error bars on the ship's position are larger) and more effectively modulate their propulsion modules for local circumstance and maneuvers (higher AB/MWD speed). Second, they provide an uplink to the sensor data from all other ships on grid (as well as the boosting ship's, if it's on grid), allowing the boosted ship to both reduce its average sensor usage (smaller sig) and to better estimate target positioning and thus focus spatial anomaly fields (webs and scrams/points) on ships farther than the on-boards sensors would normally be capable of.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#216 - 2014-05-11 19:45:23 UTC
Roguehellhound wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Burneddi wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

Ok by my math, the new Phoenix with one T1 Rigor, one T1 Bay Loading Accelerator, and one T1 Flare, and a pilot with perfect skills, will do less than maximum damage at around 2075 sig radius to a ship that is moving below the speed tank threshold. However, it will still out DPS the current Phoenix using kinetic damage down to about 1950 sig radius. Not many triage carriers are going to get down to 1950 sig radius. And this will be with with any damage type, not just kinetic. Further, the current Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with a 1950 sig radius if it goes 85 m/s, but the new Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with 1950 sig radius at about 120 m/s. So I'm sorry, all the crap about triage carriers sig tanking and speed tanking a Phoenix is really just bullshit. Also, I have not considered implants in any of this, so an implanted pilot should be able to hit ANY capital ship for more damage than currently, Ragnarok on field or not. If they take my recommendation and lower the torpedo explosion radius to 2500, even max skirmish links and a Ragnarok won't be able to hinder a Phoenix.

Keep in mind that this damage will never vary at all and will be exactly the same whether the ship is 500 meters away or 60 km away. I find it hard to believe that people seem to think that range doesn't count for anything.

My response to the guy above basically hinged around his thinking the Phoenix was crap unless it can wreck battleships. So you returning to this delusional argument about Phoenixes getting sig tanked by triage carriers is completely irrelevant to the point he was making or the point I was making.

The point is, current Phoenix can easily apply its damage to Triage carriers even without rigors, whereas the new Phoenix needs rigors to apply to triage carriers. This isn't even a hypothetical situation, if a triage Archon has links it'll be well below the explosion radius of the new Citadel Torps, and practically every triage Archon has and will have links.

You should not be required to fit Rigors to be able to apply properly to stationary capital ships.

I explained the importance of Explosion Radius and the relative unimportance of Explosion Velocity a little here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4565374#post4565374 and I suggest you go read it


I've been thinking that a part of the Phoenix's problem has been the myopia of relying on basic EFT principles to fit Phoenixes. Basically as it stands right now Phoenixes are fit with two Bay Loading Accelerators because increasing ROF is the most effective way to increase paper DPS. This is a bad decision. The BLAs do give the largest chunk of extra DPS, but they still don't give more close range DPS than a Moros and even without them the Phoenix still has the highest long range DPS. Frankly, the second BLA is basically the difference between whether your Phoenix will out damage a Moros at 30 km range rather than at 40 km range. Tactically it really doesn't do much. All dreads do 'major' damage. The extra DPS from the second BLA really just means staying on the field for a few extra seconds. Yet this second BLA also means you can't fit any flares or rigors, and people run around whining that the Phoenix can't hit anything moving or anything small. Well, it's because you didn't fit any Rigors or Flares, dumbasses. I'm fitting my Phoenix right now with them when they are even more important to hit anything moving over 60 m/s. The phoenix is designed for the player to choose between ROF rigs or explosion radius or explosion velocity rigs, or whatever else. Rigors and Flares will become more valuable after the expansion. They're already valuable now, frankly.

For the record, though, my proposed changes to the Phoenix would be exactly what the deVs have proposed except for:

2,500 explosion radius for Citadel Torpedoes, 1875 explosion radius for Citadel Cruises.
2,500 hit points for all Citadel missiles.
+100 CPU.

The CPU should get rid of the mandatory Co-Processor. The 2,500 hit points for the missiles should make a firewall basically impossible to build, and the explosion radius changes should go a long way to keeping the current Phoenix's current levels of crappiness vs sub caps and make a properly fit Phoenix immune to any kind of missile debuff. The Phoenix will not have the highest close range DPS, but it will have the most consistent DPS not only by range but in the fact that citadel missiles will be in every way unstoppable.

I think the reasoning that the debs may be using is that if a fleet wants to bring a Ragnarok, or if it wants to use skirmish sig radius links instead of some other kind of link, it should actually be effective. I am not certain how effective a massive sig radius link is against a turret boat. I haven't done that math yet. What I do know is that with a Rigor, the new Phoenix will los damage at about 1950, and it doesn't just instantly drop to nothing. It's still pretty good damage.



now now, there is no reason to call anyone "dumbasses". it seems you are quick to call others names or disparage them in some form.. remember "personality disorder"? makes me wonder about you.


And like someone stated, why the heck does a single dread needs to fit rigs while the others don't?


I tend to talk to players like players tend to talk to developers.

As of right now the only module that affects this part of the missile formula is the target painter, and sieged caps are immune to it. Therefore rigs. Now nobody asked me my opinion about more missile modules. That's not a part of this thread. But in terms of buffing the Phoenix, rigs are a part of the fitting that make things work better.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#217 - 2014-05-11 19:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Rigors and Flares will become more valuable after the expansion. They're already valuable now, frankly.
[...]
What I do know is that with a Rigor, the new Phoenix will los damage at about 1950, and it doesn't just instantly drop to nothing. It's still pretty good damage.


Flares are and will always be worthless compared to even 3x stacking penalized Rigors unless they are significantly buffed and/or the missile equation is changed. I explained why in the post I linked, but to recite it here in short, good Explosion Radius offsets a bad Explosion Velocity but not vice versa, and it is also easier to slow something down than it is to increase its signature.

Rigors (not Flares, Flares are worthless) becoming "more valuable after the expansion" isn't a good thing at all. All it means is that the Phoenixes application is becoming even worse, and you need to gimp your rig slots even more to do good damage with it. The new Phoenix will still do worse DPS than a Moros even if it's applying 100% of its deeps, and having to use a Rigor to fit sieged Dreads and triaged Carriers for full damage doesn't help its case at all when gun dreads will always apply all of their damage on those stationary targets.

The CPU change would be in order, though. Phoenix is ridicilously CPU starved.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#218 - 2014-05-11 19:48:34 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
which, realistically, would be kinda hopeless in space – you always want a contact detonation…


Not to nit-pick, but this is very wrong. High explosives almost always do more damage with proximity detonations than contact detonations, because a larger portion of the target is struck by the concussion wave, and the concussion wave is the majority of the damage.

As an example, take a depth charge. A contact depth charge will blow a hole in the side of a single ship, probably sinking it. A proximity charge, on the other hand, will cause two types of damage. First, the initial concussion will strongly damage the ship (and is even strong enough to cause major joint injuries to people standing on anything in contact with the superstructure). Second, the expansion and contraction of the gas bubble it produced will cause repeated shear stress on a ship, resulting in either the ship literally breaking apart, or at the least springing hundreds of micro-fractures that almost always lead to loss of the ship.

And it does this to every ship in range, not just the ship hit.

Now for space-based missiles, they are almost certainly shaped high-explosive charges. As a result, you want the missile to detonate near enough to the object that the shaped explosive is effective, but far enough that the resulting wave of material actually has time to accelerate from the gaseous expansion (since concussion waves are essentially meaningless in space). This generally means you do not want a contact detonation, but in fact a near-proximity detonation.

Quote:
I'm fitting my Phoenix right now with them when they are even more important to hit anything moving over 60 m/s. The phoenix is designed for the player to choose between ROF rigs or explosion radius or explosion velocity rigs, or whatever else.


This seems odd to me. No other Dread has to fit damage application rigs just to actually deal full damage to other capitals (particularly stationary Siege/Triage ones), but the Phoenix is essentially required to fit at least one Rigor rig to actually deal full DPS (which is already substantially lower than a Blaster Moros). Every single Dread and Carrier drops under 2250m sig with skirmish links, unless fit with shield rigs, so without that Rigor rig, the Phoenix essentially has an innate 10-15% damage reduction built in.

If they are balanced around using the Rigor rig, it seems a bit out of balance, to be frank. That means they only get 2 rigs to play with, instead of the 3 that other dreads get, or intrinsically do 10-15% less DPS than their paper DPS (which is already low for a dread). If that's the case, why are they even making the change? It's basically taking what they have now, requiring the application of a Rigor rig to continue to do what they can do now, slightly increasing damage against capitals moving at full tilt, and drastically dropping their damage against anything smaller than a capital.


This is a good point. And part of the reason I suggest a 2500 explosion radius on citadel torpedoes. Still, I see the changes overall as a buff.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#219 - 2014-05-11 20:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
which, realistically, would be kinda hopeless in space – you always want a contact detonation…


Not to nit-pick, but this is very wrong. High explosives almost always do more damage with proximity detonations than contact detonations, because a larger portion of the target is struck by the concussion wave, and the concussion wave is the majority of the damage.

As an example, take a depth charge. A contact depth charge will blow a hole in the side of a single ship, probably sinking it. A proximity charge, on the other hand, will cause two types of damage. First, the initial concussion will strongly damage the ship (and is even strong enough to cause major joint injuries to people standing on anything in contact with the superstructure). Second, the expansion and contraction of the gas bubble it produced will cause repeated shear stress on a ship, resulting in either the ship literally breaking apart, or at the least springing hundreds of micro-fractures that almost always lead to loss of the ship.

And it does this to every ship in range, not just the ship hit.

Now for space-based missiles, they are almost certainly shaped high-explosive charges. As a result, you want the missile to detonate near enough to the object that the shaped explosive is effective, but far enough that the resulting wave of material actually has time to accelerate from the gaseous expansion (since concussion waves are essentially meaningless in space). This generally means you do not want a contact detonation, but in fact a near-proximity detonation.

Quote:
I'm fitting my Phoenix right now with them when they are even more important to hit anything moving over 60 m/s. The phoenix is designed for the player to choose between ROF rigs or explosion radius or explosion velocity rigs, or whatever else.


This seems odd to me. No other Dread has to fit damage application rigs just to actually deal full damage to other capitals (particularly stationary Siege/Triage ones), but the Phoenix is essentially required to fit at least one Rigor rig to actually deal full DPS (which is already substantially lower than a Blaster Moros). Every single Dread and Carrier drops under 2250m sig with skirmish links, unless fit with shield rigs, so without that Rigor rig, the Phoenix essentially has an innate 10-15% damage reduction built in.

If they are balanced around using the Rigor rig, it seems a bit out of balance, to be frank. That means they only get 2 rigs to play with, instead of the 3 that other dreads get, or intrinsically do 10-15% less DPS than their paper DPS (which is already low for a dread). If that's the case, why are they even making the change? It's basically taking what they have now, requiring the application of a Rigor rig to continue to do what they can do now, slightly increasing damage against capitals moving at full tilt, and drastically dropping their damage against anything smaller than a capital.


This is a good point. And part of the reason I suggest a 2500 explosion radius on citadel torpedoes. Still, I see the changes overall as a buff.


If they fixed the explosion velocity back to what it is now or slightly better, then over all it is a buff. As for now, its a buff and a nerf.
Which is silly because the phoenix is the worst dread by far. Flying one will get you laughed at or kicked from fleet, unless its a pos bash and then, people will tell you to get a Nag or Moros.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#220 - 2014-05-11 22:17:20 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Donno if it's been mentioned.. but one thing the Phoenix might be able to do is anti-BS support.. how ? Glad you ask.

Rapid Torpedo/Cruise launchers.

This would follow the progression that Missiles have been going on as of late..


Also, would be nice to see new dreads in general, using the other weapon system of each race.. Totally not a covert way of saying I want a Drone Dread..



No.. just no.. Its a garbage weapon that is hated and you want to put it on the phoenix? You need help, serious mental help.